Page 7 | Doctor salary

Jessica231 · 2023-01-11T01:02:49+00:00

I was shocked to learn today what a junior Doctor is actually paid. No wonder the NHS is in such a state. £14 per hour for a newly qualified doctor… £24 per hour for 8+ years of experience…. I pay my cleaner more….. Embarrassed to say this is something I wasn’t aware of! The pay seems totally incompatible with the time they spend training, skills required and the responsibility involved. Anyone else shocked?

Intrepidescape · 12/01/2023 07:44

JDocNC · 11/01/2023 20:22

@Intrepidescape You clearly know nothing about medical training in the UK and frankly it’s embarrassing that you feel qualified to talk such rubbish.

You don’t just ‘become a consultant’. To become a consultant you need to be on a training scheme. Training schemes have a defined period of time in training, you can’t leapfrog that. There are exams that you have to sit (many of which you have to have been in training for x number of years before you can apply). Even if you’re in a specialty where you can sit your exams whenever and have gained all your competencies you still have to serve your time on the wards.

Ward work is often arguably not the best use of decades of medical training (a lot of admin jobs) though there is important experience to be gained (e.g. the actual ‘medicine bit’ - reviewing deteriorating patients, making management plans etc) but most wards are so short staffed juniors struggle to get off them to go to clinic, theatres etc. This means that training has to be extended (or you work for free on your days off which plenty of my colleagues do) to get this experience. Thus is becomes even longer to ‘become a consultant’. In terms of what good does ward work do for patients? Somebody has to take the bloods, do clinical skills (in many NHS trusts it’s made increasingly difficult for nurses/allied HCAs to train to do bloods, cannulas etc due to bureaucracy and staffing so they become ‘doctor jobs’), write discharge letters and prescriptions, refer for tests/other specialty opinions (and chase these tests, jump through various hoops to get them organised), rewrite drug cards and all the other jobs that mean patients progress through their inpatient stay. Training jobs are often used as service provision/to prop up failing departments with little regard to a doctors educational/training needs in order to progress.

There are huge issues with medical training. Mostly being the lack of acknowledgement that doctors are people with lives outside the hospital. I have a friend who hasn’t been told where she’ll be working from August for example. She’s been told they hope to know in May. The furthest hospital she could be sent to is two hours away. She has a mortgage here and a kid in school. How can that possibly be justified? You can’t refuse to go either as it’s a monopoly employer. You say no, you lose your place on the scheme (and thus your training number, once you’ve lost that you’re not getting trained in that specialty anywhere). A junior doctor is anyone between fresh out of medical school and a month before qualifying as a consultant. We’re therefore (mostly) adults in our 20s and 30s thus at the age where you want to get married, have children etc. I know people who had leave pulled for their own weddings the week before with no apology or acknowledgment. I’ve recently had a miscarriage - my doctor husband couldn’t get time off to come to scans with me so I was told my baby had no heartbeat on my own. He ended up going off sick for a couple of days to grieve, when he got back his rota manager had a word with him about absence and said if it happened again he’ll have to have a chat with the training scheme about his ‘professional behaviours’. My husband is an obstetrician.

As for losing the support of the general public, I don’t believe they like us very much to begin with. I don’t know a single colleague who hasn’t been verbally or physically abused (and obviously I don’t count abuse from patients who don’t have capacity). I was punched in the face on my first job out of medical school by an adult man because I couldn’t guarantee what ward he would be admitted to when he was transferred to a different hospital. Another pregnant colleague was punched in the stomach because she wasn’t available immediately to talk to a (stable) patient’s relative as she was dealing with an emergency elsewhere on the ward. As for not advocating for ourselves - there’s a huge push for industrial action at the minute (got my strike ballot through this morning), do you honestly think the current government cares about any of this though?

I’m not reading all that. Do you think that the doctors in other countries did nothing to improve their salary & conditions? Stop whinging! You want something - change it! It’s not going to be easy - but I saw this happening 15 years ago when all the cracks were showing. And for 15 years you’ve done absolutely nothing.

Yes, I know there are pathways to become a consultant. It’s a speciality. You don’t just finish medical school and become a doctor!! You need to train for years afterwards and specialise!!!

Everyone here is complaining about not being about to see a GP or a specialist. One commenter said that an A&E doctor discharged her from hospital and suggested she see a GP for a suspected broken bone!! WT absolute F?! When will you open your eyes and acknowledge you have been conditioned to accept this? Wake up!!

MyLittleSausageDog · 12/01/2023 07:53

Nope, not shocked at all. Still think it’s absolutely disgraceful considering the work they have to do. When I was taken to hospital, the registrar was running about from ward to ward throughout the night. He actually woke me
up at about 2.30am to do my obs that he needed to do.

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 12/01/2023 07:53

@Intrepidescape you won't read long things so how about this short thing:

Doctors specialise right from their 2 year rotations!!!!!!! Stop saying they need to specialise, they already do!!!

Being a consultant is not 'a specialty ', you become a consultant in your specialty when you've been doing it for x number of years.

It's fine that you don't understand the system, but it's not fine that you keep posting as if you do!

Yellowishes · 12/01/2023 07:57

@Intrepidescape seems a bit too invested here in a subject they clearly only have a superficial understanding of. Hence I suspect a troll, possibly a grumpy tired junior doc incognito.

knitnerd90 · 12/01/2023 08:07

My understanding is also that the UK training system is designed to hold back consultant numbers so doctors stay as juniors or at staff grade longer. This is in contrast to the North American system. After medical school there, they apply for their residency programme in their chosen speciality (a few require a separate intern year, but most have It built in). So for example family practice is 3 years. As long as you pass year 1, you go right on to year 2 in the same programme, etc. Unless you take a leave of absence, the length is fixed. At the end you take the board exams and then you are fully qualified. Most doctors have their board certification these days ("general practice" in North America refers to older doctors who never completed a residency).

This means British doctors stay at low pay much longer.

C8H10N4O2 · 12/01/2023 08:08

sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 17:56

How would you advise a doctor to go about getting into that? Additional courses or just apply? What skills are transferable? Are the "big 4" all London based? Thanks!

Show quote history

The Bigs are based all over and most skills are transferable but don't look at "Bigs" if you mainly want shorter hours and an easier life - the grass is always greener across the fence. Long hours and pre pandemic a great deal of travel is the norm. You don't have to look far to find the salary reviews that say despite the headline salaries for juniors the long hours mean effective hourly rates are less than NMW. Travel is not back up to where it was before but rising again. The career model is up or out in consulting.
All that said, if its what you want to actually do it can be a great career. Like medicine or law or any other profession its a long game.
Whether you would be better off starting at graduate entry or other levels will depend on other experiences you might have.

However as others on this thread have said - all professions with potentially high status or pay have long training periods. Years of long hours of study alongside work are common. Many of the salary issues are London related - outside of the SE the salaries don't stack up badly against other professions where pay will vary greatly by region. Its also patchy within the system as some specialities and practice owning can be extremely lucrative and of course the pensions cannot be matched in the private sector. You might be better focusing on a specialism which is better paid within medicine.

maddy68 · 12/01/2023 08:09

Terrible. The same for teachers. Teachers have to go to uni to get their degree in their subject. Then do a post grad degree. Then do an NQT year all for less than I pay my dog walker an hour.

We need to have a massive overhaul of all our important public services

Why bother to go through all those qualifications, training and stress to end up with shitty pay and conditions

C8H10N4O2 · 12/01/2023 08:13

NashvilleQueen · 12/01/2023 07:32

Isn't there some mad rule as well that if you work overtime it's paid at half the normal rate?!

That may have changed because it's a long time since I first read it.

That isn't unusual - it happens in many professions. Many more don't even pay overtime however much you do. Its considered part of "training" in many industries if you are on professional career paths.

iabvvu · 12/01/2023 08:17

Tistheseason17 · 12/01/2023 07:42

@iabvvu I'm not suggesting paying same as salaried, totally agree with your points - but capping at £75/hr would help to sustain the system - I'm paying over £400 for a locum to see 12 patients in 3.5hrs.
The maternity reminursement payments only cover 4 GP sessions per week at current locum rates so to cover a GP on maternity is c£100K for 12 months - it comes out of other staffing budgets.
There are more GP vancancies than locums.
Interestingly, at the height of the pandemic a swathe of locums took salaried positions for job security and income and then as the pandemic eased - they quit and went back to locuming. This hit surgeries very hard.

I do agree it's not sustainable. It's a supply vs demand issue and a sad fact of the capitalist system we live in. If someone was getting £100/hr before, it's a very hard sell to get them to do the same job for 25% less.
This is why we also need to support our consultant and GP colleagues to push for FPR once the dust has settled from us junior doctors - perhaps those vacancies wouldn't be quite so abundant if the pay reflected the hours and responsibilities that salaried GPs take on. It seems like such a tough job and a thankless task at times. I don't blame the locums, nor the newer GPs setting boundaries and not doing extra work for free, I admire that they know their worth. I know you're not blaming them either, it's a system problem rather than a people problem
It mirrors what is happening in hospitals - people are leaving permanent posts because the conditions and pay is so dire. This creates a need for locum staff that the trusts need to pay for. It works out much more expensive than just restoring our pay in the first place

C8H10N4O2 · 12/01/2023 08:30

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 11/01/2023 17:16

@Intrepidescape obviously it's different in Australia, we know that. The thread is specifically about the NHS .

Sorry to sound pedantic but the problem is not the NHS, it's the government.

Its both structure of health services and the government but also the medical profession needs to take some responsibility as well.

Doctors have always been a very powerful lobby group - the original structure of the NHS was bastardised to get doctors to accept the principle of state provided health care. The BMA wanted numbers of trainees restricted under the Blair government. The lobby end of medicine does not automatically serve its junior levels well.

Intrepidescape · 12/01/2023 08:32

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 12/01/2023 07:53

@Intrepidescape you won't read long things so how about this short thing:

Doctors specialise right from their 2 year rotations!!!!!!! Stop saying they need to specialise, they already do!!!

Being a consultant is not 'a specialty ', you become a consultant in your specialty when you've been doing it for x number of years.

It's fine that you don't understand the system, but it's not fine that you keep posting as if you do!

Why are you so angry? If doctors want more money they can unionise properly.

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 12/01/2023 08:33

@Intrepidescape I'm angry because you're spreading misinformation and ignoring everyone trying to correct you.

Bonheurdupasse · 12/01/2023 08:43

Hi @sleepyfelines
Sorry only looking at this now.
The big 4 should have offices in most of the main UK cities.
I wouldn't say one needs a retraining course- unless you actually wanted to become an accountant or something:).
What I would advise is to pick a big four and go through their website, look at the various specialties they do.
It's not just accounting / audit / insurance they do, it's various things such as health care consulting, engineering type stuff etc.

Then either approach them looking to get into their healthcare consulting or whatever the closest match- and here have a spiel of how it matches how you want to apply your knowledge and skills.
Or pick something else and explain 1 why that interests you, 2 how your existing skills will help 3 how you think you will develop your skills once in the job to grow.
I know this sounds almost facetiously simplistic. Pm me if you want

WaffleDogBlanket · 12/01/2023 09:00

Wishesa · 12/01/2023 07:41

I can't understand why there's always such a fuss about nurses pay when you compare to Junior Dr it's decent and only a 3 year degree.

It's not a race to the bottom.

Nursing has a lower starting salary than other professions, and the real real issue is the fact that tha vast majority (by a massive percentage) of nurses remain Band 5. Regardless of post graduate qualification and experience. The lack of nuance in banding and pay is seriously insulting. Nurses take on massive responsibility and extended roles, fund their own CPD, pay registration and indemnity fees, get no help with parking even when working insane shifts etc etc. It is ridiculous that I didn't get to £30k until I'd been in the NHS for decades! And when I left and worked far less hard, for much less responsibility, getting regular breaks, funded hot drinks, easy parking ... I walked into a job that paid me FAR more.

It's not a race to the bottom and all HCPs need each other to be able to perform their different but complimentary roles and we all want to see decent, fair and rewarding remuneration for each other.

PotatoMaker · 12/01/2023 09:06

@Intrepidescape Actually, one does come out of medical school as a fully qualified doctor... Those doctors fresh out of medical school are the ones looking after the sickest patients that have been admitted to hospital on the wards and they're paid atrociously for that highly stressful and draining work. You don't need to specialise to become a "real doctor".

OnOldOlympus · 12/01/2023 09:43

I think at this point we need to stop giving @Intrepidescape the benefit of the doubt… if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and continues to spout hateful rubbish despite multiple attempts to reason with it…

Though tbh she has one thing right, which is that doctors need to stand up for doctors. Unless you or a family member has been a junior doctor I think it’s easy to underestimate just how tough it is, and how wildly out of proportion the pay is when the responsibilities (from day one out of medical school) are immense. Pay restoration isn’t a magic bullet but it would go some way to stop us haemorrhaging qualified doctors out of the NHS. We need to advocate for ourselves.

iabvvu · 12/01/2023 09:48

@Intrepidescape doctors are unionising properly and lobbying for more money - look up doctors vote. That's literally why this topic has come up recently. There is a ballot ongoing currently to vote in favour of industrial action so we will likely be going on strike from March onwards. This will take the form of a full 72h walkout including withdrawal of emergency care as a starting point.

iabvvu · 12/01/2023 09:48

@Intrepidescape doctors are unionising properly and lobbying for more money - look up doctors vote. That's literally why this topic has come up recently. There is a ballot ongoing currently to vote in favour of industrial action so we will likely be going on strike from March onwards. This will take the form of a full 72h walkout including withdrawal of emergency care as a starting point.

Shouldbesleepingnow · 12/01/2023 14:36

Not necessarily. There’s none to very little private practice for my specialty (Emergency medicine).

Also NHS pay is fixed around the country, so yes in some places you will be able to afford a nice house and school. In London with just an NHS salary even Consultants struggle to get on the housing ladder.

If you do private practice, the insurance is astronomical. I have heard of insurance premiums >£30k. The NHS also penalises you if you drop NHS work to do private.

Raindropsss · 12/01/2023 18:54

Intrepidescape · 11/01/2023 17:07

This is misleading.

A guy I know became a radiation oncologist. I saw his employment contract. It was just under $500k per year and it wasn’t even 38 hours a week.

Once you are qualified you choose a speciality. You can actually earn a lot. You can also work part time hours while earning a lot of money and not working weekends. For example, gastroenterologists work the hours they choose and do surgery on days they choose. Many female doctors are getting into gastroenterology so they can earn a lot of money and still have a family life.

It’s the dumb ones who earn crap wages.

I dated a doctor who needed to earn extra money, he worked a few hours as a consulting doctor running stress tests out of a private clinic on weekends and spitting out a heart report for the cardiologist on the weekdays. He earned thousands. Apparently they just needed a doctor there in case someone coded and they needed chest compressions & the defibrillator. He didn’t even have to interpret the test results.

This was all in Australia though.

If I want a GP after hours I can call one out to the house and the federal government pays.

I can make a GP appointment for the same day without being interrogated by the receptionist and if I need a hospital I pay $100 and go private. If its a genuine emergency then the federal government and my insurance pays the rest of the bill. If it’s not an emergency then I pay for the blood tests myself and insurance and government pays everything else.

The problem is the NHS.

"It’s the dumb ones who earn crap wages"

Seriously?

Original poster

Jessica231 · 13/01/2023 00:47

Inflation adjusted pay…. It’s just crazy!

OP posts:

AreOttersJustWetCats · 13/01/2023 08:25

The civil service isn't shown on that graph but that would also have a very depressing line - well below inflation rises for years, far worse than nurses/AfC.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 13/01/2023 08:27

And even the "all workers" line doesn't represent good pay. So many careers have seen real terms falls over the last 10-20 years. Many jobs and industries still pay roughly the same as they did when I entered the workforce in the early 00s.

jkhiu989 · 13/01/2023 11:34

I work in higher education and honestly it feels like the high level public sector jobs e.g. medics, lecturers and civil servants really got shafted by this government especially if you live in London. I wouldnt recommend any 18 year old to consider these careers if they live in the South East. I remember when I graduated - these were all good careers to get into - not anymore. It's incredibly depressing because it essentially send the message that the only careers that are wothwhile if you are smart and got good grades are in the private sector i.e. focusing on making money rather than those that focus on the public good. This is yet another way in which the UK has moved away from Europe over the last few years. It is also a recipe for failing public provisions and development of corruption. We're not there yet but in other places around the world - public sector workers that control access to provisions and services but who get paid too little end up supplementing their salaries through bribery.

Neet429 · 14/01/2023 01:27

It's not easy being a junior doctor at all. I never expected it to be so difficult both financially and mentally. Me and my husband (also a doctor) live on the opposite sides of the UK because of our training posts, we have children together but they don't get to see their father. I am definitely going to leave the profession because it will take me around 15 years from now to become a consultant and that is providing I pass all my exams. I will also need to move to different areas of the UK in this time and I can't keep uprooting the kids. I have already failed my exams twice. It's impossible to revise with kids, burnout and having unsociable hours. I can't afford childcare, it costs me more than I make because it's very expensive to pay someone to take care of the kids at midnight. I don't live close to family who can support me because I don't choose where I live. I was always so passionate about caring for my patients but I've given up. I've sacrificed everything for this profession and I can't go on. If I was paid more as a junior doctor I probably would stay at this grade and work closer to my husband and family but right now it's better for me to get another job in another field. I am only a human.