Page 3 | Doctor salary

Jessica231 · 2023-01-11T01:02:49+00:00

I was shocked to learn today what a junior Doctor is actually paid. No wonder the NHS is in such a state. £14 per hour for a newly qualified doctor… £24 per hour for 8+ years of experience…. I pay my cleaner more….. Embarrassed to say this is something I wasn’t aware of! The pay seems totally incompatible with the time they spend training, skills required and the responsibility involved. Anyone else shocked?

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 11/01/2023 16:05

DH is a 'junior' Doctor, which is a joke as he started his training in 2010. He works insanely hard. 13 hour shifts, often no break for a wee or food, he literally does not eat or drink for the whole shift. This isn't an unusual one off, it happens several times a week. They run around all the time, patients in corridors, emergencies stacking up that they have to try and prioritise. Telling relatives the patients are dying, etc etc. It's unimaginably difficult and most people couldn't do it. He earns £51K. It's very hard for me to have a career as we have young kids and DH obviously works different shifts every week. We live in the south east, we are struggling financially.

In addition most people don't realise you have to move around a lot, you get very little choice. We will have to move in August, it could be anywhere in England or Wales. We only find out where in May. DS is started Reception in September. We've had to apply to our local school here, and will have to do an in-year transfer.

catlovingdoctor · 11/01/2023 16:08

AdelaideRo · 11/01/2023 14:43

@catlovingdoctor with respect to your pathologist example I think it depends a lot on where you live. I have friends in 2 consultant marriages in cheapish areas of the UK who afford a nice house, decent cars and private education for 2 children. This is unaffordable in London or the South East.

I have many many consultant colleagues who cannot buy a property (any property) and who only dream of a prestigious car and private school for their children. This is what is driving the recruitment issues for London.

It is also generational. Even in London my colleagues who are in their mid 50s generally all live in very nice areas, in big houses because they bought before the property market went mad. They two would describe themselves as well paid.

Whereas those of us that missed that time are really struggling. I'm actually lucky I have purchased (obv. still mortgaged) a home that suits my needs.

Remote and rural areas suffer different recruitment challenges - if it's a popular holiday destination housing can often be expensive, and there are often limited opportunities for a trailing spouse to get professional level employment if they don't work in healthcare. This makes it difficult to recruit as quite rightly not all spouses want to give up their career and / or if they do it then makes purchasing a family home difficult.

One of my friends ( partner is a physio) was basically told at his consultant interview that if he accepted the job they would make sure she got a job at the hospital too as they were so desperate for new consultants to join the department.

Hi,

The consultant in question is actually based in Central London, but I take your point that property there is unaffordable for pretty much anybody not earning 6 figures / without substantial family help.

I certainly have no intention of staying in London as I know I won't be able to afford it...

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 11/01/2023 16:09

Forgot to add, you have to pay for your own (compulsory) training and exams, up to £800 an exam and if you fail (50% pass rate) you pay the whole amount again.

catlovingdoctor · 11/01/2023 16:16

AdelaideRo · 11/01/2023 14:35

@catlovingdoctor I work a lot with dentists but primarily in a hospital setting and we often talk about these issues. I considered dentistry and probably have a bit of career regret whereas one of the oral surgeons I work with most often is the other way around - he wants my job!

When I needed a new GDP they all told me to go private as NHS dentistry is so fucked due to the current contract that you won't get good care from an NHS dentist. So yes NHS dental pay isn't great in the community if you are a solely NHS practice but most practices are now hybrid offering NHS and private options. I am unaware that GDP incomes are disproportionately lower than GP incomes. There is also no requirement for GDPs to offer registration to everyone so there are patients who cannot access NHS dentistry.

Postgraduate dental training to become a GDP is also shorter than that to become a GP - foundation year dental = 1 year leaving you with the ability to practice as a GDP. I know in practice many people may opt to do more training it isn't mandatory.

Whereas GP requires - Foundation year medic = 2 years (same national salary scales as dental) then GPVTS of 3 years which includes passing all the components of the mandatory MRCGP exam. The fees for being a registered trainee & exam are quite expensive and are paid by the doctor. There was a thread on twitter last week which i can't find but these fees were in the region of £3000 pounds. If you have to resit an exam you have to pay the fee again.

Most of the dentists i work with are consultants or dentists in training in a specialist dental hospital on the same salary scale as me and doctors in training.

They either accept the lower salary and altruism element or working solely for the NHS (generalising this tends to be the paediatric or special needs dentists!) or have huge private practices on the side (the oral surgeons) with the lifestyle benefits that go alongside this.

There are other differences - GDC registration is more expensive (I think £770 vs £400) but I think indemnity is lower for dentists than doctors.

Hi,

Yes, if you work full time in NHS dentistry you will probably flatten out at about 50k. I think that's less than a salaried GP, who at the very least will get annual leave and sick pay. That's also the same two years out of uni and twenty years out of uni, with no room for progression.

People are typically trying to escape working in the NHS dental contract, so it isn't necessarily a case of "oh well just go work privately then".

You are correct; specialists in hospital dentistry are paid in correlation to medics. Dentists doing specialty training are paid the same, and have to pay themselves the same for Royal College exams, memberships etc exactly the same as medics.

Also, for certain dental specialities, specialising involves taking a clinical masters (MClinDent) which are excruciatingly expensive. In contrast a medical registrar will at least receive a salary.

sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 16:17

Thank you for this post!

I've been a doctor for coming up ten years and I'm sick of people telling me I'm overpaid/greedy...I graduated with around £70,000 in student loans (and that was before the current tuition fee levels).

To add to the salary information, there's multiple things we have to pay for to progress...
Defence union (mandatory, around £300-400 a year)
Royal college membership (mandatory, to be able to use the compulsory portfolio, around £400 a year, depending on specialty)
Exams (around £400 a time, usually in London, usually 4-6 exams over a few years, depending on specialty- also very common to need to resit them)
Courses- anything up to £1500 a time- not strictly mandatory but unlikely to get jobs without them

We also move hospitals every 6-12 months, with little/no say in where we work.

I wish someone had told me all of this before I applied for uni at 16!

H2bow · 11/01/2023 16:20

Xmasgrinchywinchy · 11/01/2023 13:44

Junior doctors are very poorly paid but the money comes at consultant level especially when they can pick up private work. I know a lot of consultants and they are earning an absolute fortune. It may just be in London but they’re on a 6 figure basic in their nhs work and then, goodness knows how much of a fortune in private work and the only one who doesn’t do private work is in acute medicine. It’s enough to live in incredibly expensive areas in big houses and to put 2 or 3 kids through private school;

They still earn less than their counterparts in similar countries, even though its a decent wage they should get more imo. The workload and level of responsibility as a JD should be appropriately compensation rather than well one day they might go on to earn more.

Raindropsss · 11/01/2023 16:27

Doctor here. Love my job (i.e. seeing and treating patients) but the rest of it is hard...really hard. I'm a consultant now and whilst pay is "better"..the level of stress is ridiculous and the responsibility and additional unrecognised work isn't reflected in the pay. Medicine isn't for those wanting to get rich!

AdelaideRo · 11/01/2023 16:30

@catlovingdoctor you are being disingenuous. All the masters students work in practice for at least one day a week. As do many of the registrars.

dental training is typically Monday to Friday with no nights.

The dental registrars are regularly surprised that I’m either doing elective work (contracted and not optional) or oncall (same) at the weekend.

Please stop comparing dental salaries with medical salaries like this. As others have said If you want to complain about dental salaries then please start a different thread. I’m sure there are many challenges but we are not seeing widespread strike action in the dental sector due to pay despite the ravages/challenges of the current NHS contract and Covid shutdowns.

Original poster

Jessica231 · 11/01/2023 16:36

This thread wasn’t intended to compare dentists vs. doctors.

I was shocked to learn what a doctor earns, even without considering the cost of their exams and student debt. I can definitely understand now why they are going on strike.

yes I wasn’t aware of this but I do now and it’s no wonder the NHS is in a shambles. If we’re not properly paying the staff then of course they’re going to go elsewhere…! Shocking

OP posts:

Intrepidescape · 11/01/2023 17:07

This is misleading.

A guy I know became a radiation oncologist. I saw his employment contract. It was just under $500k per year and it wasn’t even 38 hours a week.

Once you are qualified you choose a speciality. You can actually earn a lot. You can also work part time hours while earning a lot of money and not working weekends. For example, gastroenterologists work the hours they choose and do surgery on days they choose. Many female doctors are getting into gastroenterology so they can earn a lot of money and still have a family life.

It’s the dumb ones who earn crap wages.

I dated a doctor who needed to earn extra money, he worked a few hours as a consulting doctor running stress tests out of a private clinic on weekends and spitting out a heart report for the cardiologist on the weekdays. He earned thousands. Apparently they just needed a doctor there in case someone coded and they needed chest compressions & the defibrillator. He didn’t even have to interpret the test results.

This was all in Australia though.

If I want a GP after hours I can call one out to the house and the federal government pays.

I can make a GP appointment for the same day without being interrogated by the receptionist and if I need a hospital I pay $100 and go private. If its a genuine emergency then the federal government and my insurance pays the rest of the bill. If it’s not an emergency then I pay for the blood tests myself and insurance and government pays everything else.

The problem is the NHS.

confusedcentral5 · 11/01/2023 17:10

There seems to be huge discrepancies in pay. The consultants & GPs I know are all on 6 figs.

confusedcentral5 · 11/01/2023 17:11

My cousin is a 2 day a week or equivalent sessions GP & earns 40k for that.

Whatafielddayfortheheat · 11/01/2023 17:16

@Intrepidescape obviously it's different in Australia, we know that. The thread is specifically about the NHS .

Sorry to sound pedantic but the problem is not the NHS, it's the government.

DomesticShortHair · 11/01/2023 17:21

AreOttersJustWetCats · 11/01/2023 14:23

Firstly, not everyone can become a consultant.

Secondly, I can't think of any other career where you stay at the low paid end of the spectrum for 15-20 years before achieving a salary that is commensurate with your skills and ability. In most of the careers that a very bright person could consider going into, you can expect to be earning very decently indeed after 5-10 years.

Show quote history

Veterinary surgery. Except, more often than not, you don’t ever get a salary that is commensurate with your skills and ability.

AdelaideRo · 11/01/2023 17:22

@Intrepidescape so glad to know I’m not earning more money because I’m stupid!

And not because I work for a monopoly employer in a specialty with limited private practice opportunities under a political regime that doesn’t value the public sector.

Passportpondery · 11/01/2023 17:23

The money in the NHS is in the wrong places. Directors within the trust will be earning £80-120k for working 9-5 with 8 weeks holidays and very little stress.

ssd · 11/01/2023 17:26

My young dentist (who looks 15) and his doctor wife have just emigrated to Oz.

Can't blame them but my god he was really good.

AdelaideRo · 11/01/2023 17:27

@confusedcentral5 or you think they are on 6 figures!

Consultant salary scales are national and readily available. You don’t breach 100k for full time (10PAs) until you have been one for 9years.

if you do an onerous on call rota you might make 100k after 5 years.

You can make more by doing additional PAs (ie working MORE than full time) but the pension situation means this is no longer desirable and virtually everyone in my dept now works 10PAs or less.

Doctors are often quite poor with money and there are a number of people thundering into big pension tax bills because they haven’t changed their working hours.

Hoppinggreen · 11/01/2023 17:29

When I was a medical rep I earned more than a lot of the Doctors I dealt with. Plus I got a car and only worked 9-4 most days Monday to Fridays

OnOldOlympus · 11/01/2023 17:30

Intrepidescape · 11/01/2023 17:07

This is misleading.

A guy I know became a radiation oncologist. I saw his employment contract. It was just under $500k per year and it wasn’t even 38 hours a week.

Once you are qualified you choose a speciality. You can actually earn a lot. You can also work part time hours while earning a lot of money and not working weekends. For example, gastroenterologists work the hours they choose and do surgery on days they choose. Many female doctors are getting into gastroenterology so they can earn a lot of money and still have a family life.

It’s the dumb ones who earn crap wages.

I dated a doctor who needed to earn extra money, he worked a few hours as a consulting doctor running stress tests out of a private clinic on weekends and spitting out a heart report for the cardiologist on the weekdays. He earned thousands. Apparently they just needed a doctor there in case someone coded and they needed chest compressions & the defibrillator. He didn’t even have to interpret the test results.

This was all in Australia though.

If I want a GP after hours I can call one out to the house and the federal government pays.

I can make a GP appointment for the same day without being interrogated by the receptionist and if I need a hospital I pay $100 and go private. If its a genuine emergency then the federal government and my insurance pays the rest of the bill. If it’s not an emergency then I pay for the blood tests myself and insurance and government pays everything else.

The problem is the NHS.

Yes except we’re not talking about Australia, we’re talking specifically about the UK. And we’re not talking about consultants, we’re talking about junior doctors. And if we were talking about consultants their job planning works differently here, and pay is different too. And gastroenterologists are medical doctors, they don’t do surgery. So basically this was a steaming pile of irrelevant bollocks, but thanks for your input 👍🏼

Intrepidescape · 11/01/2023 17:32

AdelaideRo · 11/01/2023 17:22

@Intrepidescape so glad to know I’m not earning more money because I’m stupid!

And not because I work for a monopoly employer in a specialty with limited private practice opportunities under a political regime that doesn’t value the public sector.

Then immigrate to a country that will pay you. You chose this. You chose this knowing what it was. Or stay and build a better lobby group - because there’s no one lobbying in your interests now.

gogohmm · 11/01/2023 17:42

I know consultants earn less than finance and banking executives but compared to the rest of us they are paid well - claiming £88k (starting salary for a consultant) isn't high is offensive to the rest of us who also had student loans and some of us work with the poorest in society front line!

My friends from university who are doctors are now all consultants or senior partner gp's and all have very nice houses and kids in private school, none live in London I admit. I don't begrudge them a penny of what they earn and none of them moan they are underpaid either

sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 17:44

gogohmm · 11/01/2023 17:42

I know consultants earn less than finance and banking executives but compared to the rest of us they are paid well - claiming £88k (starting salary for a consultant) isn't high is offensive to the rest of us who also had student loans and some of us work with the poorest in society front line!

My friends from university who are doctors are now all consultants or senior partner gp's and all have very nice houses and kids in private school, none live in London I admit. I don't begrudge them a penny of what they earn and none of them moan they are underpaid either

The majority of doctors aren't consultants.

The ones being paid £14-28/hr? We're the ones in the hospital overnight, treating emergencies and keeping the patients safe. (Not suggesting consultants don't work hard- but there's not enough of them to have them in hospital all night as well as all day!)

Bonheurdupasse · 11/01/2023 17:55

@Goldi321

If you're seriously looking to exit medicine, please don't despair...
There would be lots of jobs outside the health system that would consider an ex Dr as an asset. Eg consultancy in the big 4 etc etc.
I speak as someone working in insurance but my whole family are Dr's.

sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 17:56

Bonheurdupasse · 11/01/2023 17:55

@Goldi321

If you're seriously looking to exit medicine, please don't despair...
There would be lots of jobs outside the health system that would consider an ex Dr as an asset. Eg consultancy in the big 4 etc etc.
I speak as someone working in insurance but my whole family are Dr's.

How would you advise a doctor to go about getting into that? Additional courses or just apply? What skills are transferable? Are the "big 4" all London based? Thanks!