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Doctor salary

188 replies

Jessica231 · 11/01/2023 01:02

I was shocked to learn today what a junior Doctor is actually paid. No wonder the NHS is in such a state.

£14 per hour for a newly qualified doctor…

£24 per hour for 8+ years of experience….

I pay my cleaner more…..

Embarrassed to say this is something I wasn’t aware of! The pay seems totally incompatible with the time they spend training, skills required and the responsibility involved.

Anyone else shocked?

OP posts:
sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 18:59

Intrepidescape: "then become a consultant!"

Yeah it's not that easy. There are limited training posts- huge bottlenecks of people qualified to take them up, but not enough spaces despite the lack of consultants. Once you're in a training post, you're forced to move around every six months- not feasible when you have a family. Expensive exams and portfolios to pay for.

We have a lobbying group- the BMA. They're currently balloting for a strike due to the horrific working conditions and the nearly 30% real terms pay cut doctors have had over the last ten years.

Perhaps don't make blasé remarks on something you have no experience of?!

hopeishere · 11/01/2023 18:59

But @AdelaideRo the amount you will get at the end is generous is it not?

I get the taxation issue stops you adding to the pot (or costs you) but how much is your projected "pot" at retirement?

Intrepidescape · 11/01/2023 18:59

IamMummyhearmeROAR · 11/01/2023 17:56

My husband is a consultant but he doesn't do private work as there isn't a demand for it and also he isn't interested in working more than he already does. At times we have really struggled. We had just bought our first home when he was moved as part of his rotation. We knew this would happen but they wouldn't tell us when. They said it would be 6 months and it was 18 months. It was 3 hours away from our 'permanent' home.For this time we had to run 2 homes, our bought home and our rental. We had a baby and there was no hospital accommodation suitable. At the same time he was paying for exams essential to his career progression. He no longer does on call as he is too old and knackered so his pay reflects this.

This is because people refuse to pay for specialists - they want everything covered by the NHS. It’s just wrong. I don’t think my country have a perfect medical system - which is why it’s constantly adapting.

If you want change you have to fight for it.

BTW - all this clapping the British did for the NHS was absolute cringe. I absolutely feel that if people value medical care then they should pay for it. I understand that many people can’t afford it - but right now in the UK people are dying because they can’t get in to see a doctor & sometimes when they do get in they are dismissed.

I’ve had private health insurance since I was 18 and I kept it even when I earned terrible wages - I did this because I knew I would need it in the future.

You Brits need to push your politicians at the next election. It’s not just a matter of funding - it’s overhauling your entire medical system. Australia has had to make changes. We don’t rely fully on Medicare.

sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 19:00

Intrepidescape: everyone below consultant isn't a generalist. They're working in specialties. I'm not a consultant, but my specialty is anaesthetics/ITU and has been for years. Ditto for my friends who are surgeons, endocrinologists, paediatricians etc.

OnOldOlympus · 11/01/2023 19:03

@Intrepidescape What is your agenda here? Because you’re posting all over this thread, everything you say betraying your complete lack of understanding about how medical training works in the UK, and to the casual onlooker it looks like you’re just hoping to get a rise out of people.

Thestagshead · 11/01/2023 19:06

Doctors aren’t paid an hourly wage though, they are paid a salary whuch escalates until you are fully qualified

when in training it’s up to 50 odd grand , when qualified up to 80, then escalating further if you specialise or become a consultant , up to 120k before private work.

a gp earns from 90 up to 175k

most professions earn low when in training. It’s just for obvious reasons it takes a long time to become a qualified doctor

IamMummyhearmeROAR · 11/01/2023 19:09

@intrepidescape
You are wrong I'm afraid. We live in an area of Scotland where people cannot afford private healthcare and where the local
private hospital closed due to lack of business nothing to do with the reason you state

sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 19:14

Thestagshead · 11/01/2023 19:06

Doctors aren’t paid an hourly wage though, they are paid a salary whuch escalates until you are fully qualified

when in training it’s up to 50 odd grand , when qualified up to 80, then escalating further if you specialise or become a consultant , up to 120k before private work.

a gp earns from 90 up to 175k

most professions earn low when in training. It’s just for obvious reasons it takes a long time to become a qualified doctor

Doctors are qualified when they graduate medical school. Those "trainees" are the ones seeing you in A&E, doing emergency c-sections overnight, resuscitating patients etc...please do feel free to tell them they're not fully qualified!

Intrepidescape · 11/01/2023 19:15

OnOldOlympus · 11/01/2023 19:03

@Intrepidescape What is your agenda here? Because you’re posting all over this thread, everything you say betraying your complete lack of understanding about how medical training works in the UK, and to the casual onlooker it looks like you’re just hoping to get a rise out of people.

I don’t think I could have been more clear:

1). Lobby your government to change the legislation regarding health services;
2). Specialise. Don’t expect to just be a ward doctor.

Why are you moaning here and doing absolutely nothing to change the status quo?

Also, striking won’t do anything to change the system. It also won’t endear you to turn British public either.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 11/01/2023 19:16

adviceatthislatestage · 11/01/2023 18:53

Re £100k salary. Friend's DS has been with them for about 6 years and I have no reason to doubt my friend

Did he train with them?

It takes 3 years to get qualified with the accountancy firms (this can't be any shorter as it's the professional body that sets the requirement. Exam exemptions make no difference - you need 3 yrs works experience as well as the exams).

So if he trained with them he'll have been qualified 3 yrs - he'll likely have made Manager level (assuming he's doing well), which is not paid anywhere near £100k, even in London.😂

No one makes Big4 director 3 yrs after qualifying, not even the highest high flyers.

ApiratesaysYarrr · 11/01/2023 19:19

Xmasgrinchywinchy · 11/01/2023 13:44

Junior doctors are very poorly paid but the money comes at consultant level especially when they can pick up private work. I know a lot of consultants and they are earning an absolute fortune. It may just be in London but they’re on a 6 figure basic in their nhs work and then, goodness knows how much of a fortune in private work and the only one who doesn’t do private work is in acute medicine. It’s enough to live in incredibly expensive areas in big houses and to put 2 or 3 kids through private school;

Consultant salaries England

You don't hit 6 figures until year 6 unless you are working above a standard 40 hour week (although to be fair many consultants are).

Year 6 consultant = 5 years at University, then after qualification 2 years Foundation programme, 2-3 years core training and 5-6 years higher specialist training. Many specialities also require time out for a doctoral degree, or even once you have finished training a post-training fellowship to get more experience in a particular type of operation.

Mushroo · 11/01/2023 19:19

AreOttersJustWetCats · 11/01/2023 19:16

Did he train with them?

It takes 3 years to get qualified with the accountancy firms (this can't be any shorter as it's the professional body that sets the requirement. Exam exemptions make no difference - you need 3 yrs works experience as well as the exams).

So if he trained with them he'll have been qualified 3 yrs - he'll likely have made Manager level (assuming he's doing well), which is not paid anywhere near £100k, even in London.😂

No one makes Big4 director 3 yrs after qualifying, not even the highest high flyers.

Agree with this! And if he is on £100k (I guess if he’s literally been promoted to Senior Manager very recently and got a pay bump) he must be remarkable and very skilled, despite his ‘mediocre’ degree.

Mischance · 11/01/2023 19:20

My late OH was a GP. We married when he was just starting med school, having already done a first degree. So I watched him from Day One - I watched him crushed by the whole system - the long hours, the stress, the emotional toll, the lack of family time. He "retired" from the NHS at 42 due to the toll on his mental well-being and was employed as a freelance locum and sessional GP - he could choose the hours he did, with the resulting huge drop in salary. He kept this going as long as he could, then developed Parkinsons, went downhill and died.

A worthwhile life? - I just don't know.

EmmaEmerald · 11/01/2023 19:21

OP I am surprised you didn't know. They were striking in 2016 as well.

Schroedinger - "Where is all the nhs money going? Is it inefficient useless IT projects, maintaining costs of ancient or PfI hospitals, bloated management, litigation and compensation, expensive treatments?"

yes.

EmmaEmerald · 11/01/2023 19:21

Oh and procurement - don't get me started.

AreOttersJustWetCats · 11/01/2023 19:23

Mushroo · 11/01/2023 19:19

Agree with this! And if he is on £100k (I guess if he’s literally been promoted to Senior Manager very recently and got a pay bump) he must be remarkable and very skilled, despite his ‘mediocre’ degree.

Outside of London, you'd need to be at the top end of senior manager level to be getting close to £100k, so a new promotee would be miles off.

There are so many myths about the supposedly high Big4 wages. The pay is ok, but in reality, if you're not a partner you won't be paid shedloads when looked at in the context of the hours that are expected etc.

OnOldOlympus · 11/01/2023 19:37

Intrepidescape · 11/01/2023 19:15

I don’t think I could have been more clear:

1). Lobby your government to change the legislation regarding health services;
2). Specialise. Don’t expect to just be a ward doctor.

Why are you moaning here and doing absolutely nothing to change the status quo?

Also, striking won’t do anything to change the system. It also won’t endear you to turn British public either.

Ok fine.

  1. We have lobbied the government. They have failed to engage at all and continue come up with policies which would make the situation worse. Hence, the proposed strike.

  2. As others on this thread have tried to explain to you already, a “general ward doctor” isn’t really a thing. After the first two years foundation training, which you enter after medical school, the next step is specialty training.

So basically, you are talking out of your arse.

sleepyfelines · 11/01/2023 19:37

OnOldOlympus- well said!!

Chihuahuasrule · 11/01/2023 19:39

I love the idea that gastroenterologists in Australia don't do any out of hours/emergency work. Clearly GI bleeds only happen 9-5 there.

Consultant here. Was shocked to see a junior doctor post their wage slip recently on twitter. Their take home pay was only £100 more than I earned as a house officer back in 2001.

SouthwestSis · 11/01/2023 19:49

I absolutely back the nurses, doctors and ambulance staff in their fight for fair pay. They are worth so much more than how this government.
They are beginning to realise this more and more as they leave the NHS for better pay!
We can't keep taking our key workers for granted

prescribingmum · 11/01/2023 19:55

In addition to the poor salary, there is the total lack of respect from the British public for medical professionals. I honestly can’t believe the way I hear some people swear at and abuse them at times. Saying that, the government have no respect for healthcare professionals so why would the public?!

I will be doing everything to steer my children away from all healthcare professions when they are older

JDocNC · 11/01/2023 20:22

@Intrepidescape You clearly know nothing about medical training in the UK and frankly it’s embarrassing that you feel qualified to talk such rubbish.

You don’t just ‘become a consultant’. To become a consultant you need to be on a training scheme. Training schemes have a defined period of time in training, you can’t leapfrog that. There are exams that you have to sit (many of which you have to have been in training for x number of years before you can apply). Even if you’re in a specialty where you can sit your exams whenever and have gained all your competencies you still have to serve your time on the wards.

Ward work is often arguably not the best use of decades of medical training (a lot of admin jobs) though there is important experience to be gained (e.g. the actual ‘medicine bit’ - reviewing deteriorating patients, making management plans etc) but most wards are so short staffed juniors struggle to get off them to go to clinic, theatres etc. This means that training has to be extended (or you work for free on your days off which plenty of my colleagues do) to get this experience. Thus is becomes even longer to ‘become a consultant’. In terms of what good does ward work do for patients? Somebody has to take the bloods, do clinical skills (in many NHS trusts it’s made increasingly difficult for nurses/allied HCAs to train to do bloods, cannulas etc due to bureaucracy and staffing so they become ‘doctor jobs’), write discharge letters and prescriptions, refer for tests/other specialty opinions (and chase these tests, jump through various hoops to get them organised), rewrite drug cards and all the other jobs that mean patients progress through their inpatient stay. Training jobs are often used as service provision/to prop up failing departments with little regard to a doctors educational/training needs in order to progress.

There are huge issues with medical training. Mostly being the lack of acknowledgement that doctors are people with lives outside the hospital. I have a friend who hasn’t been told where she’ll be working from August for example. She’s been told they hope to know in May. The furthest hospital she could be sent to is two hours away. She has a mortgage here and a kid in school. How can that possibly be justified? You can’t refuse to go either as it’s a monopoly employer. You say no, you lose your place on the scheme (and thus your training number, once you’ve lost that you’re not getting trained in that specialty anywhere). A junior doctor is anyone between fresh out of medical school and a month before qualifying as a consultant. We’re therefore (mostly) adults in our 20s and 30s thus at the age where you want to get married, have children etc. I know people who had leave pulled for their own weddings the week before with no apology or acknowledgment. I’ve recently had a miscarriage - my doctor husband couldn’t get time off to come to scans with me so I was told my baby had no heartbeat on my own. He ended up going off sick for a couple of days to grieve, when he got back his rota manager had a word with him about absence and said if it happened again he’ll have to have a chat with the training scheme about his ‘professional behaviours’. My husband is an obstetrician.

As for losing the support of the general public, I don’t believe they like us very much to begin with. I don’t know a single colleague who hasn’t been verbally or physically abused (and obviously I don’t count abuse from patients who don’t have capacity). I was punched in the face on my first job out of medical school by an adult man because I couldn’t guarantee what ward he would be admitted to when he was transferred to a different hospital. Another pregnant colleague was punched in the stomach because she wasn’t available immediately to talk to a (stable) patient’s relative as she was dealing with an emergency elsewhere on the ward. As for not advocating for ourselves - there’s a huge push for industrial action at the minute (got my strike ballot through this morning), do you honestly think the current government cares about any of this though?

paintitallover · 11/01/2023 20:31

Jessica231 · 11/01/2023 01:02

I was shocked to learn today what a junior Doctor is actually paid. No wonder the NHS is in such a state.

£14 per hour for a newly qualified doctor…

£24 per hour for 8+ years of experience….

I pay my cleaner more…..

Embarrassed to say this is something I wasn’t aware of! The pay seems totally incompatible with the time they spend training, skills required and the responsibility involved.

Anyone else shocked?

And they have 5 or 6 years worth of student loan, plus interest at 6.5% and about to rise substantially. Oh, and paying for all of their post graduate exams and all studying in their own time. The most highly educated, but badly paid and badly treated graduates in the country. It's an outrage really, and now they are going to be subject to a barrage of spin and bullshit put out (overtly and covertly) by the government via various channels, including Mumsnet no doubt. It makes me very angry.

Atethehalloweenchocs · 11/01/2023 20:35

Not a doctor but have a senior clinical role in the NHS for which I have 2 degrees and a post grad qualification. A friend of mine has a son who has just got a graduate job in finance for more than I make. Show what we value.

paintitallover · 11/01/2023 20:35

And @catlovingdoctor I see you are aware of the old and new contract, with all new graduates being on an even worse deal.

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