The WhatsApp message leak

[Mycatsgoldtooth]

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

The idea that lockdown prevented mass death as opposed to merely choosing the type of untimely deaths we wished to avert shows a complete lack of understanding. We were faced with picking which shit sandwich we wanted to eat, and there wasn't a no thank you I don't actually like shit sandwiches option on the menu.

'BUT - the antidote is not to then look for answers in the Telegraph. Or to assume the Tories were ‘pro lockdown’ therefore no lockdown is the answer. I don’t think the Tories were pro lockdown at all. I think they were very anti. Hence the huge fuck up. They dithered, were indecisive, implemented it too late, the tier system etc. I think they were very much caught between the scientific argument and their own ‘let’s protect the wealthy and healthy’ stance. Papers like the Telegraph are pissed off with what the Tories during lockdown because they didn’t to ENOUGH to protect the health and the wealthy. Although granted they’ll weaponise ‘concern over the vulnerable’ to hammer their point.'

I think this is a fair point. The Telegraph will blame lockdown for anything...and weaponise concern over mental health. A recent example...The FT recently did an article showing the rising trend (10 years to 2020) on mental health in kids since smart phones became more accessible. One vocal anti lockdowner quote tweeted the article attributing it to the 'last few years', another quoted the last few years tweet to say lockdown, another (Telegraph's Pearson surprise surprise) retweeted the lockdown quote. It was a short article with clear graphs. Why is it only mental health with lockdown they are supposedly concerned about? It is hollow.

BUT - the antidote is not to then look for answers in the Telegraph

No, only the Guardian apparently.

The Telegraph have their own agenda, obviously, and if it was transparency they were concerned about then we wouldn't be seeing such selectively curated messages. Nonetheless, there is no getting round the fact that the messages are an incredibly significant and important resource for finding out what was actually happening and at present the only access we have to them is through the Telegraph drip feed.

I read that the covid enquiry does also have them so hopefully we get a fuller picture in due course.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard

Drip feed as to what was ‘actually happening’? The Telegraph? Same paper that gives oxygen to the likes of Toby Young?

Not giving me any hope that this isn’t just another bog standard Covid misinformation thread here.

UKIP view on Covid below. Someone please tell me the very clear difference between this stance and the anti-lockdown, anti-mask stance on this thread:

“The effect of the behavioural teams had very negative effects. Neighbours snitched on neighbours. There was a kind of mini-hysteria whipped up. The virus could be anywhere that wasn’t sanitised. Masks should be worn at all times in indoor spaces (despite the nutty professors saying early on that the evidence for the effectiveness of masks was inconclusive). In reality, masks became a form of social control as much as viral control. An overwhelming feeling that Big Brother was watching you developed. We became a bio-security state, an open prison. The media used the climate of fear to scare us even more in their efforts to win readers and viewers, and the state broadcasting behemoth of the BBC was only too happy to parrot what the scare scientists briefed them to say. It was one socialist state organisation setting out to protect another socialist state organisation, the NHS. It is not inaccurate to say that the media is the real virus.“

Yes, Isabel Oakeshott has chosen to leak the messages to the same paper that gives oxygen to Toby Young, amongst other arseholes, meaning they are the only mechanism that the public currently have to see those messages. I expect we could all think of reasons why we'd rather it wasn't the DT and the DT only in this position. But they are.

And the reason for that, incidentally, is because the Health Secretary in the administration that implemented the lockdowns in the UK is very right wing and indeed was balls deep in the disastrous austerity programme that left the UK so ill prepared for a pandemic, was part of a nasty populist right wing government until he got sacked for breaking his own rules and as such he entrusted a very right wing, Brexit licker of a journalist with his memoirs.

With that in mind, the only way you could disagree with me is if you think the messages aren't important and don't tell us anything about what was actually happening. Is that your view, and if so, why?

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard that sums it up nicely. It was the same with Brexit. A well off and intelligent friend of ours voted leave as he was quite clear that he saw distinct advantages in a Norway option. But as we said to him a few years ago when he was now moaning about it 'but the norway option wasn't on the ballot' it was either stick with the status quo or go with whatever leave option they decided to implement- you don't get a say. Thing with lockdowns is that at least 50% of the population would want draconian measures and the other half maybe more like how Sweden implemented it. I hate the current bunch of Tory's but they could never win on this one. What was wrong though in my opinion was the lack of pre planning for this situation and the lack of due diligence about throwing public money round to mates like it was going out of fashion

What was wrong though in my opinion was the lack of pre planning for this situation and the lack of due diligence about throwing public money round to mates like it was going out of fashion

Those both made the situation much worse. The problem we faced is that they were both inevitable when the path of lockdown was chosen.

The lack of pre planning for lockdown is basically because the pandemic planning we'd done previously, which was always apparently considered to be quite good regardless of administration, hadn't advocated for it. Lockdown happened because China did it and then lots of other countries followed. We knew this anyway, but parts of this message leak have provided further evidence. So with the best will in the world, the planning for lockdown had to be thrown together very quickly because that's what happens when you implement an incredibly radical policy proposal with very little warning. I loathe the Tories as well but in fairness to them, any administration of whatever flavour would've been faced with the same problem.

Then because this lot are particularly corrupt and grifting, them taking the opportunity to enrich their revolting friends was also baked in. That's what happens when a government headed by Boris Johnson gets unprecedented new powers.

Oh, and your Brexit point is a good one- worth also pointing out that because of how much time, space and energy Brexit took up in the civil service over the last few years, that meant fewer resources for other stuff. Like, say, pandemic planning. Fucking Tories.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard I agree- on the lockdowns I think they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard I also think this nightly 'update ' thing they did didn't help and caused even more panic- particularly with older people. We were living in Copenhagen at the time and just got TV updates from the PM if any rules were changed.(about every 3 weeks on average) . What really irritated me in those texts was all the self congratulatory high fives - like an edition of the Apprentice!

Oakeshott is in a relationship with Richard Tice. Leader of ReformUK. The Farage Party. So what are her motives?

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard

I mean call me confused or obsessed, but maybe she’s using this as a way to drum up support for her partner Richard Tice and his lovely, lovely, very right wing party. How’s that going to help the poorest in our society? How’s that going to help inequality? With ReformUK getting power?

Being very right wing, obviously. And personal career advancement, probably money too.

Does that mean the content of these messages themselves are not significant or important and if so, can you explain the mechanism by which an extensive primary source evidencing what members of the government were saying and doing during a pandemic becomes unimportant because of sexual contact with a Brexiter?

Bear in mind, the administration that implemented lockdown are also very right wing and, well, I don't think many people in England feel the response to the pandemic wasn't important or significant. So you are actually going to have to do a bit better than pointing out that something is right wing. Not least because if you think right wing equals bad, that means the English lockdown you support was also bad on the same basis.

Agree on both points @Crikeyalmighty . Those ridiculous attention seeking briefings were straight out of the populist playbook.

And here’s a thought! Maybe, just maybe she’s seeing ‘let’s prey on people’s insecurities’ ‘let’s weaponise ‘look at the hardship’ lockdown has caused’ in a way to get Tice in power. That is NOT - and I repeat ‘NOT’ going to result in a fairer society for all.

Good thing nobody on this thread has said it would. Honestly, you've got to stop the strawmanning if we want to have a sensible discussion.

We don't have to like the fact that the DT is the only access the public currently have to these messages, nor that we only have them because of the actions of an objectively awful human being. It doesn't matter whether we do, in fact. The content of them is still significant.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard

Because you HAVE to look at people’s motives. It’s SO important. Why is she doing this? Covid is a perfect way to get support for for her partner’s political party. If that now results in people thinking : well the Tories were shit, I hate them, I hate lockdown - I’ll look into voting for the only potentially electable UK party who were anti lockdown and are ‘apparently’ concerned by those who’s lives were destroyed by lockdown. Is that REALLY the concern? Or are they ACTUALLY concerned about protecting the healthy, strong and wealthy?

Will that result in better equality for the worst off in society? Her partner’s very right wing party in power?

You can’t just ‘brush this off’ - pretend that her political motivation doesn’t matter!

Do I agree that the public should be aware of the leaked messages? Yes - although I think there are big questions over journalistic codes that have been broken. And in light of it all - to read other opinion pieces other than ‘The Telegraph’ over the leaks.

Nobody is saying you shouldn't look at people's motives. But you cited them as an argument against my statement that these messages are a significant record. They're not. They don't actually matter in the slightest when assessing the importance of these sources. Which isn't the same as saying they don't matter per se.

If you want to have an argument about what Oakeshott and the DT intend by this, there are plenty of places on the Internet you can do that without tying yourself into knots as you have here, with people who generally agree with you on that particular point.

Also, iirc you aren't in the UK? The Reform party, UKIP etc are fringe and unelectable. Labour will win the next election.

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard

There was talk about Farage potentially rejoining ReformUK. That could catapult them in the polls. Look at Le Pen in France. You’ll see various articles in the media about the rise of far right politics in Europe. So I’m going to make a LOT of noise if I can see the same kind of thought processes here.

No - I disagree about the trying in knots. Just because the majority might not agree. - I’m not going to ‘boot off’. That would be an attempt to create an echo chamber on this thread right? Social Media tends to be a magnet/solace for more extreme views. Which is why I think there are an overload of Telegraph type thinking here. You can report me to Mumsnet if you think I’m derailing.

However nine times out of ten they tend to delete the misinformation links or links to extremist publications…

Papers like the Telegraph are pissed off with what the Tories during lockdown because they didn’t to ENOUGH to protect the health and the wealthy

You are joking arent you Lockdown favored the laptop class. Try saying what you said here to the people of Leicester who were locked down the longest. Try saying it to those who worked in the garment factories and other factories who had no choice but to go to work. The Amazon delivery drivers the supermarket workers. It was the working class who wernt protected.

France is massively different to the UK politically and something happening there simply isn't evidence the same will occur here. It's not going to happen, honestly. There's a reason why you're focusing much more on what are now very fringe political parties in the UK than the people who actually live here. I'm trying to be kind as I do see that you're worried. But the relevant right wingers here are the ones we're going to give their P45s to at the next general election.

Also, you are tying yourself in knots.

I made a post stating that while the DTs selectivity and political motives are quite obvious, and that we won't get the full account of the messages before the enquiry, they're still a very important source and record.

You then made a post disagreeing. Because you agree about the politics, the only way you could genuinely dispute what I said was if you thought they weren't important.

I asked you to clarify if you thought they weren't important and if so, how they became unimportant due to recent contact with right wingers as opposed and you've not told us that. You then also said you think the public should be aware of the leaked messages, which I agree about and which you presumably think is the case despite the DT and Oakeshott's obvious political bias. So we actually concur fully there. But why is it a good thing for the public to be aware of the messages, if they're not important and significant?

Vanessa Feltz did an interview with Isabel Oakeshott on Talk TV last Thursday. It was about an hour in. Vanessa was aghast at people who were more angry with Isabel than what was actually IN the messages.

I started listening to Talk TV (then talk radio) back in November 2020 when they pulled the second lockdown. So did a lot of my working class friends because Talk Radio as was then were the ONLY ones exploring what was happening because of lockdowns and they were the only ones listening.

As she should be.

I understand people might have views on the journalistic ethics, though I don't know much about that myself. I also get that people might not accept the legal basis for her public interest argument. Both of those things are fair enough.

But regardless of how one feels about the message leak, they're obviously genuine and the politically motivated, curated examples we've seen are fucking horrifying. The Health Secretary, the person in charge of this, was laughing at people who were quarantined. Lots of those people will have been doing things like attending family funerals and saying last goodbyes to elderly relatives. They were talking about how best to weaponise the Kent variant, ffs. These things are appalling.

It's ironic that it seems to be mainly those who think lockdown was justified who want to avoid talking about how awful this is. Because really, it's a much bigger problem for them than it is for those who oppose lockdown or like me are on the fence, and they do themselves no favours by not tackling it head on. If you think lockdown is legitimate and want it to be a tool in future pandemic planning, it would really be sensible to acknowledge all of this and set out a case for why and how it needs to be avoided next time round.