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The WhatsApp message leak

836 replies

Mycatsgoldtooth · 02/03/2023 10:35

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
MinkyGreen · 11/03/2023 18:56

it’s just fact though!

Daily Telegraph = Right Wing Bias. More so than the Mail.

Guardian = Left Wing Bias.

So let me get this right. Apparently it’s fine to comment on awful Matt Hancock/terrible Tories. But as soon as anyone starts linking their preferred fav right wing authors/publications (and I’d say Telegraph are worst of the Tory papers) - it’s ‘how DARE you associate me with right wing politics - politics have NOTHING to do with it.

Doesn’t make sense??

JenniferBooth · 12/03/2023 00:17

Well neither do you.

MinkyGreen · 12/03/2023 03:13

“The Cochrane Review has apologized for an evidence review that led many to conclude, inaccurately, that masks don’t work.

The idea that masks don’t help slow COVID is an “inaccurate and misleading interpretation” of the report they published in January, Karla Soares-Weiser, editor-in-chief of the Cochrane Library, wrote in an update posted to the their website on Friday. The international organization publishes summaries of evidence on various health topics, and are now blaming a poorly-worded summary of one report for the fact that many people came away with the idea that the face coverings don’t help.”

MinkyGreen · 12/03/2023 03:22

Researchers at Mass General Brigham, one of Harvard’s teaching hospital groups, found that in early 2020, before mask mandates were introduced, the infection rate among health care workers doubled every 3.6 days and rose to 21.3 percent. After universal masking was required, the rate stopped increasing, and then quickly declined to 11.4 percent.
In Germany, 401 regions introduced mask mandates at various times over three months in the spring of 2020. By carefully comparing otherwise similar places before and after mask mandates, researchers concluded that “face masks reduce the daily growth rate of reported infections by around 47 percent,” with the effect more pronounced in large cities and among older people.

Brown, who led the Cochrane review’s approval process, told me that mask mandates may not be tenable now, but he has a starkly different feeling about their effects in the first year of a pandemic.

“Mask mandates, social distancing, the other shutdowns we had in terms of even restaurants and things like that — if places like New York City didn’t do that, the number of deaths would have been much higher,” he told me. “I’m very confident of that statement.”

FrostyFifi · 12/03/2023 07:55

So the Guardian is a reliable source and the Telegraph isn't, due to political allegiance. Got it.

Catspyjamas17 · 12/03/2023 08:04

The messages leak only confirmed what I thought at the time, that Hancock and Williamson in particular demonstrated poor judgement and decision making.

Communicating new restrictions to apply the next day at 9pm on Twitter had me absolutely raging at the time. As did the attitude to schools in late 2020/early 2021. All the foot stomping and threat of legal action about schools making their own decisions on closure just before Christmas then letting kids go back for two days in January before closing schools.

Utter, utter fuckwits. Makes me wish we still had the stocks. I could never tire of throwing rotten eggs at them.

MinkyGreen · 12/03/2023 09:05

@FrostyFifi

Well yes it does depend on political allegiance.

If you are saying the Tories are terrible in favour of a right wing, libertarianism argument : and link The Telegraph, you might as well be upfront about it - or at least be aware of the political allegiance of your source.

On these type of threads, I see absolutely no acknowledgement of : the 7 million who died from Covid, those who are vulnerable, those with long term health complications. They are dismissed often as ‘old and frail’ - or that their lives are somehow less worthy, much as Sumption inferred about the Stage 4 cancer patient.

That’s why I highly suspect there is a more right wing libertarianism argument going on here : promoting Sumption, the Telegraph, putting the needs of the ‘healthier’ in society, those with good natural immunity, and putting economic wealth above the needs of others.

So rather than insult or dismiss - give me a good solid argument as to why this is not the case?

MinkyGreen · 12/03/2023 09:10

I’m not necessarily saying ‘unreliable’ - supporting a right wing, populist, libertarian argument : many think it’s a very valid argument. Sumption is a very intelligent man.

I very strongly think it’s wrong though. And I’m free to point that out.

Alexandra2001 · 12/03/2023 09:15

WestwardHo1 · 09/03/2023 17:00

And yes that scorn and blatant attempt to embarrass and silence is awfully 2020.

Nonsense.

If someone comes on here and says they knew better than everyone else about a new virus which was believed to be and is highly contagious... no one really knew the method of transmission.... then they'd better have something to back it up esp when they then say a family member was a virologist who qualified 18months ago so had just started 2nd year in 2020.

In January (early on) no one knew anything about Covid, it was German investigations that showed how it spread, against WHO current advice (the only source of info at the time, aside from China)

The theme running through ALL Covid threads now is a high level of hindsight and "i told you so"

thing47 · 12/03/2023 09:47

That's obviously an oblique reference to an earlier post of mine, so I will just point out briefly that you don't become a virologist via an undergraduate degree so said family member was actually in their 5th year of study in 2020.

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the differences between being a second-year undergraduate and carrying out postgraduate level original research in a bio-secure lab where you are surrounded – and personally supervised – by the world's leading experts in their field. Universities don't generally let undergrads loose on CRISPR technology.

That said, you are absolutely correct to point out there is tons we didn't know, and still don't @Alexandra2001. The jury is still out on the effectiveness of counter-measures, the origin of the virus, which gene is responsible for some people being really badly affected and others not at all etc etc etc. To take just one specific example, for a long time Type I diabetes was considered to de facto put people in the vulnerable category, but they now know that is not the case.

So actually I do agree with the general point you are making, I was only addressing the specific point about outdoors transmission, as that was genuinely known quite early on as being extremely low risk. The politicians chose to ignore that knowledge as it suited their purposes to do so.

Hawkins003 · 12/03/2023 11:54

I haven't a clue so this is a guess, but could the virus originally been eg completely intended for eg enhancing human beings for eg military applications but some thing went wrong or an unplanned combination or mutation and it ended up with the pandemic ?

Admittedly that's a big stretch.

Hawkins003 · 12/03/2023 11:55

@thing47

bronzepig · 12/03/2023 12:27

Hawkins003 · 12/03/2023 11:54

I haven't a clue so this is a guess, but could the virus originally been eg completely intended for eg enhancing human beings for eg military applications but some thing went wrong or an unplanned combination or mutation and it ended up with the pandemic ?

Admittedly that's a big stretch.

complete stretch @Hawkins003

The genome of SARS-COV-2 (original, VOIs) etc is publicly available and has been poured over by thousands, if not more, experts. It is a coronavirus, typical of those naturally circulating in the population. There are no genetic sequences that look out of place. This does not prove it hasn't been genetically engineered, but there's absolutely no evidence of tampering in an attempt for uh, "enhancing human beings".

The other apect is (although not my area) if you were attempting to increase muscle mass or whatever or whatever, this kind of vehicle would be a stupid way of doing it due to the very transient effects (i.e., mRNA broken down rapidly in vivo). There are all sorts of newer technologies being used in an attempt to generate longer term or permenant effects for those with genetic disorders.

Hawkins003 · 12/03/2023 12:40

bronzepig · 12/03/2023 12:27

complete stretch @Hawkins003

The genome of SARS-COV-2 (original, VOIs) etc is publicly available and has been poured over by thousands, if not more, experts. It is a coronavirus, typical of those naturally circulating in the population. There are no genetic sequences that look out of place. This does not prove it hasn't been genetically engineered, but there's absolutely no evidence of tampering in an attempt for uh, "enhancing human beings".

The other apect is (although not my area) if you were attempting to increase muscle mass or whatever or whatever, this kind of vehicle would be a stupid way of doing it due to the very transient effects (i.e., mRNA broken down rapidly in vivo). There are all sorts of newer technologies being used in an attempt to generate longer term or permenant effects for those with genetic disorders.

Fair points and much appreciated for your analysis. My idea behind it was the genome army from the metal gear solid series and the unisols from the universal solider film series.

JenniferBooth · 12/03/2023 14:00

@MinkyGreen You are making a lot of assumptions about peoples lives. DH is now 73 and high risk. So much so that when we both went down with a very bad stomach bug two weeks ago NHS 111 sent a first responder and an ambulance crew. He has COPD ischemic heart disease and arthritis. I cant even use nail polish because the fumes make his throat close up. Despite all this he too was against the lockdowns. He has never voted Tory in his life. I have a long history on here (under another username) and in RL for trying change the way social housing tenants and disabled people are treated.

Our HA actually told DH that his mobility scooter would be taken away and destroyed because it was a fire hazard. They did this by leaving a notice in the hallway. Its a block of only four flats so it would not have taken a long time to find out who it belonged to. There was no mention of an alternative It was only after shaming them on social media (and i suspect their fear of it going viral at Christmas 2017) that he got a proper scooter shed with a charging point built which he happily pays for himself. Why am i banging on about this????

Because before Covid not many gave a fuck about housing or disability issues. What made me AND DH very angry is the fact that all of a sudden when Covid hit MORE people suddenly cared. Except it wasnt caring. It was using YES USING people like DH as a tool to berate and bully and emotionally blackmail others into following nonsensical rules. I found this disgusting and i still do As does DH, A lot of those using disabled and vulnerable people as a stick to beat others with couldnt give a fuck the rest of the time when its about non Covid issues. The hypocrisy was off the charts. And true to form it was back to the default setting soon enough. You only have to read the recent social housing threads on here Three years ago people were moaning like fuck that poorer people didnt have room in poky flats to self isolate but it has changed NOTHING because we still have people moaning about SH tenants having too many bedrooms. Some of us could see this hypocrisy while it was happening and thats why in my case i did not follow all the "rules" or was it guidance!!!!!!

Crikeyalmighty · 12/03/2023 14:09

@JenniferBooth my father in law didn't agree with lockdowns either and he was 81 at the time. He agreed with Sweden where it came down to personal choice. The way he felt was that it was ruining many lives and businesses .

Crikeyalmighty · 12/03/2023 14:39

All I can say is we were living in Copenhagen for majority of lockdown apart from 1st few months and they seem to have handled it much better. For quite a while when things opened we had covid passports which meant stuff was open but if you wanted to go to cafes/bars and restaurants you had to be tested every 3 days , a bit of a pain in the arse but it did help keep things flowing I felt and it was all free and on your doorstep. We didn't have nightly 'sessions' on the lecturn which I think actually created more panic- just a TV session when any new changes came in (about every 2 to 3 weeks) - and they only brought the vaccines in about 5 weeks after the UK as they were not satisfied I believe with the AZ trials. All figures were available online daily. Consequently we were about to go to Spain in June 2021 without a hoo ha or being charged to leave/get back in the country etc and I don't remember reading about PPE issues either , biggest issue they had was the mink farm thing. I realise scale is important but some of the things don't relate to scale. Spending 37 billion on a track and trace that was non effective and not having a heavyweight PPE supply ready to go (and there were recommendations for this in 2016) could have all been avoided. Allowing phantom businesses to draw down huge loans with no due diligence and then shortly after liquidate themselves- it all smacks of a total lack of planning or common sense- and these WhatsApp messages to me show they spent far more time high fiving each other than is normal amongst sensible and practical people.

JenniferBooth · 12/03/2023 14:43

@Crikeyalmighty my mum was 84 at the time and she said the same as your FIL

Alexandra2001 · 12/03/2023 15:19

@thing47 Fair enough & it was never my intention to denigrate your DD.. super hard to get a Masters... congrats on the job too

Yes i remember T.May commenting on the risks she had with CV at the time being a diabetic herself.

FrostyFifi · 12/03/2023 21:31

@JenniferBooth I hope you don't mind me saying I "recognise" you now, it's nice to see you still about, I've name-changed as well since recently. I hope all is good with you.

JenniferBooth · 12/03/2023 21:55

No worries @FrostyFifi Flowers im not too bad ta. Hope all is well with you too.

EmmaEmerald · 12/03/2023 22:58

I agree with Jennifer on the vulnerable thing
My best friend's dad had cancer, he's dead now. Lockdown ruined his last years.
My cousin had a shielding letter - transplant patient - she ignored it. She lives up north and eventually was lucky in that her friends agreed to ignore lockdown and visited her. So jealous.
Mum was 81, her bestie 84. It was terrible for them to be cut off from their social lives, a lot of elderly people lost mobility. We were shouted at to keep moving in the local park, benches taped off etc - people are finally starting to admit this on MN. Many elderly from mum's friends, my block of flats and church just didn't go out because there was nowhere to pause and sit.

That said, mum asked for a chair in the supermarket once, the mask made her breathless, they went to the
staff room and got her one.

Loads of vulnerable people were damaged by lockdown. The ones I know, they always were vulnerable to infectious disease so they were realistic.

MinkyGreen · 13/03/2023 06:29

@JenniferBooth

Yes - I do hear and empathise. My DM said the same initially, that she didn’t want others to lose their freedom to protect her.

Tories have never given sufficient funding to health and social care, and yet more than happy to weaponise those needs when suits. And they never will. They are wealth over health. Their whole ethos is to promote individual success and their ‘argument’ would be that this then benefits all. It doesn’t. It causes huge inequality and attracts to the party who would dismiss the ‘have nots’ as plebs.

BUT - the antidote is not to then look for answers in the Telegraph. Or to assume the Tories were ‘pro lockdown’ therefore no lockdown is the answer. I don’t think the Tories were pro lockdown at all. I think they were very anti. Hence the huge fuck up. They dithered, were indecisive, implemented it too late, the tier system etc. I think they were very much caught between the scientific argument and their own ‘let’s protect the wealthy and healthy’ stance. Papers like the Telegraph are pissed off with what the Tories during lockdown because they didn’t to ENOUGH to protect the health and the wealthy. Although granted they’ll weaponise ‘concern over the vulnerable’ to hammer their point.

MinkyGreen · 13/03/2023 06:38

“No one is pro-lockdown; this was about being anti-mass death”

Good article here:

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/10/pandemic-mental-health-covid-lockdown

MinkyGreen · 13/03/2023 07:16

And I said the same to my Mum. She is not a scientist, she is very noble, and she would put the needs of others before herself. She said : don’t lockdown to protect me.

But : if she then got Covid, and was very ill - would she expect treatment? Or forgo treatment and a bed space?

As her carer there is no way I’d have left her without support or a way to ease her suffering. So the impact that has is : a demand for hospital services and a hospital unable to cope with demand.

A hospital that cannot cope = not ok. An ambulance that cannot get to someone dying because they are so overstretched = not ok. Someone not even able to get basic pain relief, and has to die in inhumane circumstances = not ok. A child who loses a vulnerable parent to Covid = not ok. A school that has staff that are too ill to teach = not ok. A child that cannot get adequate care in a hospital because they are so stretched = not ok. Complications from Covid and those complications requiring demand for treatment = not ok.
And I think that mass emergency situation - before we had the vaccine, before we had a method to control - needed restrictions/measures in place to stop it becoming even worse than it already was. .