If you didn't get the jab, would you consider having it now?

[AreYouVeryAnti]

You'd better be quick if you're healthy and under 50...

"The Telegraph understands the Government is also preparing to wind down the open offer of the first two doses over the coming months. The move will mean unvaccinated healthy under-50s will soon not be able to get a Covid jab unless one is recommended by a medical professional."

New Zealand does have a hyper aging population. I’m not sure why 37th on the 2019 list is being pointed out? As proof that it’s not a factor when it clearly is?

In Europe : Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and Norway had some of the lowest excess mortality rates and highest vaccination rates?

So how does that data work with the incredibly naive/over-simplified/taking absolutely no other factors into account/cherry picking of statistics to make a nonsense association between excess death rate and high vaccination uptake?

That typical vaccine hesitant decry of ‘do your own research’, ‘I can see through the science and the media’, ‘I don’t follow the herd’ makes zero sense when that ‘very special research’ is:

• YouTube (or when it gets banned there) unregulated think tanks (usually far right) - but of course the source/politics of the source are completely unrelated in this instance so I’ll just turn a blind eye.
• Facebook/Telegram groups and echo chambers
• very happy t be herded into an anti-science type group or think tank with no question - while accusing others of being herded by MSM or consensus science
• spectacular examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect where people with little scientific ability (exemplified by the cherry picking/misinterpretation of data/inability to back their view leading to a flounce/insult) think their knowledge is superior to consensus science
• a sudden ‘love’ of MSM and consensus science if a statement or finding can be manipulated out of context/misquoted or cherry picked to suit the agenda

@MinkyGreen

In Europe : Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and Norway had some of the lowest excess mortality rates and highest vaccination rates?

thank you. that's very reassuring and helpful.

i have written before that all of my immediate family and closest friends have been vaccinated. i am the only one (aside from my young sons). when i read that the vaccine could be criminalised in idaho, part of me panicked that something could be wrong. when i saw the nz death rate (on here), i worried that it could be linked to poor efficacy. i wish there were a way to interact with other people without the insults, negative assumptions and vitriol. i would love to begin a thread, in the hope of interacting with other people who might be in a similar position to me, but i'm pretty sure it would be reported and deleted. if any of you have a suggestion of a topic thread i could begin that would address my concerns without being deleted, i would be grateful. this is just so unpleasant, and the last thing i need while searching for answers in a state of vulnerability and aloneness.

@rockly
i am not expressing any conclusions, as you have requested, because i don't know. i am not a scientist, nor a physician, nor a statistician, nor a lawmaker. i do not have expert opinions to share. it would be irresponsible of me to hypothesise. many people on here do have these qualifications and some are generous enough with their time to express their views, which i appreciate.

@peppathe3rd All you need to do is ask specific questions instead of dropping vague hints and then not replying. There are many knowledgeable posters who can link you to various sources and give informative replies.

e.g.,
"I just saw that there's a proposed bill to ban the mRNA vaccines in Idaho (link to credible new outlet). Does anyone know where this has come from and should I be worried?"

"There's excess death reported in New Zealand (link to credible news outlet) is worrying me because I'm concerned it's linked to the SARS-COV-2 vaccines. Could there be a link? If not, why?"

I have huge amounts of sympathy for those with anxiety surrounding vaccines, or who genuinely want to know more, as do others.

For whatever reason, you have a long posting history of just linking various conspiracy theories, fake claims, dropping hints etc and never interacting with people who reply to you, which makes posters suspicious.

....i could begin that would address my concerns without being deleted, i would be grateful. this is just so unpleasant, and the last thing i need while searching for answers in a state of vulnerability and aloneness.

If you genuinely feel like this then the best thing you can do is get out of the echo chamber where you're getting disinformation from, and engage with credible scientists and doctors @peppathe3rd There's so many who put out evidence based information in the form of blogs. twitter rolls, substacks etc. Would you like me to link some?

There's an entire industry designed to profit by pumping out anti-vaccine disinformation. The people at the top benefit, everyone else is harmed (scammed out of money, risk of various "snake oils" that are offered instead, harms of turning down vaccines, anxiety/depression/fear for themselves and others).

@rockly
thanks very much. that is really helpful advice. having been ostracised by my family and friends has been very difficult. when i have asked questions like you suggested, i'm normally met with - when did you finish your medical degree (from my family, so obviously sarcastic), right wing bots have somehow high jacked my mind (which is especially painful coming from my loved ones as my views have always been the most liberal in my circle). i was fortunate enough to be graced with a very high IQ (not to brag, but just for context since my close circle are aware of this fact), yet, now i am treated like a total moron who needs to be "managed.". receiving similar insults on here has been painful, but some of the information is so helpful that i haven't left. the experience, qualifications and intelligence of so many on here is an invaluable resource, so lately, i've tried to put my emotions aside, write the bare minimum, and hope for some facts that will inform me. unfortunately i am overly sensitive and the tone of so many replies really hurts my feeling, so i try to ignore them by not engaging. i'm not sure if this makes sense, but your reply was very kind and appreciated and if i manage to build myself back up mentally, i'll try your method. i really appreciate your message and feel it was written with kindness which has honestly moved me to tears.

@statementstate the PP has posted a fair amount of detail regarding the fear and anxiety they are feeling because their loved ones are vaccinated, and they assume this is going to lead to their deaths/other terrible outcomes.

This is not rational and it is not a good way to live. There is no evidence to suggest vaccination of the general population was a mistake, or that you're going to drop dead because you had a vaccine a year ago.

I'm not saying this from fear - I'm saying it because it's true. I chose to have a booster recently because I'm happy with the evidence demonstrating it's beneficial for my demographic group.

Equally, I am not getting my information from "compromised search engines", I'm getting it from evidence synthesised from the most up to date publications in the area.

I have said to you before I'm very happy to look at any evidence you think suggests the opposite, in an unbiased way. I'm also very open to changing my opinion if there is robust evidence behind it. Ultimately all these claims I've seen so far can be traced back to numbers/stats/sentences taken out of context and used to cause fear.

Thanks @bronzepig I can also find all the scientific evidence to back up my stance.
I’m glad to hear you’re not led by fear, I wouldn’t want that for anyone.

My position is this, not everyone across the globe needed to be vaccinated against Covid. For many the risks aren’t worth the benefit if they already had robust immune systems that were equipped to fight off the virus without complications. All the restrictions put in place for those who weren’t vaccinated were for ulterior motives. Why were people being forced and coerced? Why did people lose their jobs, lose their right to education, and the freedom to move around, fly, visit family in hospital, lose their eligibility for organ transplants. All of these drastic punishments for those exercising body autonomy and sense of agency are hard to forget. Tell all those across the world who have been injured that it was worth it for them.

The cardiologist who is treating my friend said thousands of people have applied for compensation, and many are turned down if they’re not above a certain percentage of disability. You have to be almost completely incapacitated for them to care. He and colleagues have referred more than 150+ between them due to the level of damage they’ve seen to hearts of young people under the age of 50. There are many others apparently who seek compensation outside of the government scheme also who don’t meet the strict criteria. Maybe you should seek these people out yourself and hear what they’re going through. I’d never have been made privy to any of this if my friend didn’t become injured. So many people are unaware. So the injured are brushed to the side, while those with long Covid are catered to with compassion.

I’m angry for my friend, 2 doses of the vaccine destroyed her life. She didn’t need them.

@statementstate

Thanks @bronzepig I can also find all the scientific evidence to back up my stance.

Then do link it? As I've said, I'm very happy to review anything in an ubiased way and will update my opinion on vaccination if there is robust evidence behind your claims.

My position is this, not everyone across the globe needed to be vaccinated against Covid. For many the risks aren’t worth the benefit if they already had robust immune systems that were equipped to fight off the virus without complications.

But there genuinely is robust data demonstrating this is to be untrue.

Again - if you think you have evidence otherwise share it and I'll read it. But from what I have reviewed as a scientist - it was far safer to be vaccinated than unvaccinated, even in younger lower risk groups.

I’m not sure what was being said by @peppathe3rd and @statementstate - deletions again.

Mumsnet is a parenting forum. People come here because they have concerns or want advice.

Discussing those concerns is one thing.

Continually pushing a harmful agenda is another - and imagine that’s why the posts have been removed.

That anecdotal piece about your friend is hard to take seriously when it’s scattered between other posts that have now been removed. How does anyone know if your personal bias has caused you to over exaggerate something you’ve heard/or attribute an injury to the vaccine when a properly qualified doctor would say it’s not the case? Particularly when your bias is so extreme that Mumsnet sees fit to remove your posts.

That’s why it’s safer to follow global consensus opinion which attempts to be free from bias. And the guidelines in every country around the globe is that the vaccine is safe and effective.

@MinkyGreen are you ok? Now you’re pretending my posts are being removed because I’m imagining things? Or exaggerating an injury? I didn’t diagnose my friend, her cardiologist did and I’m sure he’s qualified to do so. She wouldn’t have qualified for compensation if she wasn’t injured to the extent she is. What’s sad is that had she not had private health insurance she wouldn’t have bothered to push through all the hoops to go ahead with her claim.

Your comment proves my point.

You don’t bat an eyelid for those who are injured. Why is that? What is harmful about this conversation?

@statementstate

I said I imagine your posts are being deleted because you are pushing a harmful agenda or because you have extreme bias. Therefore it’s hard to take anything you say seriously as you may well be exaggerating. I could give plenty of anecdotal hunches as why I feel the vaccine is a good thing - or assessments by doctors I’ve had experience with. But I’d prefer to stick to consensus science as I’m not sufficiently well qualified to think my hunch or my friends experience or my friend if a friend who says xyz is a more reliable source than global quantified bias free data.

MinkyGreen out of interest - do you accept that many people have been harmed by the covid vaccines?

@MinkyGreen my posts aren’t being deleted though. Why do you keep saying that? It’s odd.

@MinkyGreen plus, it’s not anecdotal at this point, it’s a fact, because she’s getting compensation. So you’re saying all those who are in receipt of compensation from medical experts are anecdotal? How worrisome.

For many the risks aren’t worth the benefit if they already had robust immune systems that were equipped to fight off the virus without complications.

The trouble with this outlook is that no-one knows ahead of being infected whether their immune systems will do that or not. Regardless of their age. So it's a lottery.

@statementstate

You had a post deleted at 19.49 yesterday. It’s odd that you think that’s not the case.

Is that my misinterpretation of data or yours?

Yes there are risks with any vaccine. People have been harmed - but the global consensus opinion is that your risk of injury from the vaccine is far, far, far lower than your risk from Covid and complications from Covid.