Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

I'm not sure what you think that means?

Are you under the impression that means there are no large-scale or reputable studies or analyses of data?

And I know someone who almost died of covid right at the beginning and was on a ventilator for weeks. I know no one who has been harmed by the vaccine in the medium or long term. It has been flu like symptoms and a sore arm at the most.

Why is your experience more valid than mine?

Did I say your experience was less valid?

Vaccines need to be trialled for years not bloody days and the new one on 8 mice? Please do your research and stop believing all the nonsense from VERY well paid ''professionals'''

if you did your research you’d know that coronavirus and MRNA vaccines have been in development for at least 20 years.

coronavirus vaccines were never brought to market as up until now they were not a health issue, so no demand for them.

mRNA vaccines have only (relatively) recently found an effective delivery system. But they’ve been used in HIV trials for a long time and were shown to be safe.

It makes them both equally meaningless though.

Vaccines need to be trialled for years not bloody days and the new one on 8 mice? Please do your research and stop believing all the nonsense from VERY well paid ''professionals'''

This is the issue with these threads, everything gets conflated together.

Previously, you were talking about the original vaccines @Samarie123. These were the ones rolled out to the general population - which were robustly tested in trials. With billions of doses given, and multiple independent research groups and bodies assessing this data, they are some of the most well studied intervention in human history.

Would like to see. Still waiting......

Which vaccine and with which strains was tested on only 8 mice? Are we talking about an original/BA4-5 variant vaccine here?

If we are, do the flu vaccines need to go through years of testing every time we change the strains?

mRNA vaccines have only (relatively) recently found an effective delivery system. But they’ve been used in HIV trials for a long time and were shown to be safe.

Yup, quite right @Reallyreallyborednow .Those researching flu vaccines have been exploring mRNA vaccines for about 20 years. And the recently released malaria vaccine, for which there are high hopes, is also mRNA-based. This I have direct knowledge of as DD2's field of expertise is vector-borne diseases and her Masters dissertation was on new methods of controlling them.

@RafaistheKingofClay absolutely. Not as vas as it sounds abd just like flue tweaks each year.
www.cbs17.com/community/health/coronavirus/fact-check-were-new-covid-19-boosters-tested-in-just-8-mice-should-it-matter/

Bad

Fgs autocorrect. FLU

😂 It’s ok I got your meaning. I do have an email asking for volunteers for a trial of the Moderna bivalent vaccine somewhere. So I’d be surprised if it wasn’t tested.

my guess is that there was a BA1 bivalent version that was tested and then they have changed it to a BA5 using the same process they do for flu vaccines. So it would be weird to object to it if you don’t object to how new flu vaccines are developed each year.

Exactly that.

I think the conspiracy/anti vaxx/science denier response around Covid is quite mind blowing. I think it has a lot to do with psychological reactance and the fact that people were very heavily persuaded to get vaccinated/so there was a reaction against an imposed rule. I wonder how much of it is to do with the method as well, that vaccination is a needle - and whether if it came in the form of a pill/nasal spray - there would be more acceptance. Social media groups that allow an echo chamber type discourse around misinformation has also played a big role. Also think it’s interesting how far right groups (who are probably more than happy to see a cull=survival of the fittest) have peddled a lot of the misinformation.

It’s almost cult like. Jay Van Bevel is really interesting to listen to. He described a cult in America where they all believed the world would end at a particular time on a particular day. They all gathered in a church - and when the time passed - rather than admit they were wrong, the cult leader said he had got a ‘message’. The message was - because they had believed, they had saved the world. So - rather than the embarrassment of admitting they were wrong, they all chose to believe the message. I think you see this type of behaviour from science deniers. So ingrained are their beliefs, that it’s impossible to reason with them - even when faced with irrefutable proof.

Some rules were bat 🦇

there wasn’t a persuasion - in many cases there was a mandate. Care workers being one. Scotland - you couldn’t attend a rugby match or night club or large event. It nearly extended to all hospitality - “papers please”

children in Italy were not allowed to play sport. People couldn’t go on trains. Canada was even worse.

i was told that my concerns around a mandated vaccine programme was a massive “conspiracy theory”. Boom. Vaccines for babies - welcome to the US

vaccines affecting periods? Don’t be ridiculous! That’s anti vaxx. “Get the jab and save granny/your community”. Oops.

I could go on and on but you cannot possibly blame people for going further down the “where does this end?”

do I think pharma has welcomed the development and stands to gain from misleading messages/influencing boards and medics? Bloody right I do.

@BeethovenNinth

Hmm, that DOES sound like you believe others are conspiring against us though…

I don’t think anyone wanted mandates, they were used when the situation was critical and with no way of telling what might happen next. I do believe - in care homes - the reason was to control infection and to protect the vulnerable.

If this was happening globally - what does this point to - a global conspiracy?? All governments in on it together??

Babies have vaccines - MMR etc, that’s not news.

There has been transparency in MSM over periods, that there may be a temporary change in cycles - but periods then return to normal and fertility is not effected. If MSM were ‘in on this’ with good old ‘big pharma’ why would they report this?

So what exactly do big pharma gain?? You think they want to kill their customers? You think medicine today is worse today than ever due to profit making, that we stand less chance of survival if we are seriously ill then say - 30 years ago??

Or - do we know more about medicine today than 30 years ago - we are able to finance better learning and research for a whole host of serious diseases??

Of course in hindsight they were but in the early days so much was unknown. They just wanted people to go and get the absolute essentials and go home. Not faff around browsing birthday cards.

I think we should NEVER force a medicine on anyone as a fundamental and basic principle.

that we did has and will continue to have huge consequences for trust in government and medicine and also other vaccines.

What is really upsetting me at the moment is the number of anti-vaxxers who are saying people are going to drop dead in short order if they've been vaxxed, this based on the 'unexplained' excess deaths in various countries which they claim have been caused by the vaccines.

It's upsetting to hear people claim my loved ones, friends and neighbours and even virtual friends I have are all going to die soon. I find it very hard to believe they actually would die but it's the way it's being bandied about, do people not even think they might be causing distress with their views?

crunchy to be honest I think it’s as much to do with a covid infection as the vaccines. We are probably all doomed! I say that as someone who hasn’t been vaccinated but who has had old covid at least once. This doesn’t feel like a “normal” virus

Their views are not based on current science.

If you look at the growing body of evidence, it is showing that having covid, even mildly, leads to a significant increase in stroke and other cardiovascular events for at least 12 months after infection.

That the excess deaths are "unexplained" is just plain wrong

If you want to believe that covid is mild and has no long term impact, then they probably do seem inexplicable. But the peer-reviewed published evidence shows a different picture