Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

I don't understand these posts?

Yes in that study 0 participants in the treatment arm got COVID, therefore the vaccine was 100% effective.

They are reporting the statistics, just as other drug companies did in their RCTs, which is where the >95% figures from.

You can liteally see how the numbers were derived when you look at the reported numbers.

@henlee

The UK aren't offering a vaccine this autumn to healthy children (or anyone under 50), presumably for this reason.

www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/downloads/COVID-19-immunization-schedule-ages-6months-older.pdf

Different countries will have come to different conclusions regarding whether they think it is worthwhile (not is it safe) to offer vaccination to children.

It depends on many factors including the resources they have available & whether it is considered more costly to roll out to an entire group of people, or whether it is more costly to have a certain % of individuals needing acute/hospital/long term care.

Governments do not like wasting money, they are not going to roll out a vaccine if they think it is going to cause more harm than benefit.

As always - if you disagree with the vaccination schedule for your child, you can turn down the offer.

@foliageeverywhere
Yes, I understand that. @henlee wrote that the UK is not offering the jab to children any longer, as Denmark have decided - I was correcting that statement.

Why link info from the CDC?

@foliageeverywhere

"As always - if you disagree with the vaccination schedule for your child, you can turn down the offer."

Having lived through the past 2 years, this statement seems difficult to process. Many, MANY children did not want to take this vaccine, but were heavily coerced by methods as silly as doughnut offers and free burgers, to punitive measures - i.e. not being allowed to attend school, being dismissed from sport's teams (which represent the future livelihood of certain youths), not being allowed to attend universities, being fired from jobs across a vast array of sectors, and on and on. One cannot rewrite the past and gloss over the weight of coercion that was placed on the shoulders of countless people of all ages. This travesty of medical ethics cannot be erased, and statements as reductive as yours above are highly problematic to those of us who have suffered grave consequences as a direct result of this "boot on the neck" level of coercion.

Again this seems to be a conflation of many different issues.

We were talking about offering vaccination to children - AFAI there were no mandates placed on children in the UK regarding vaccination.

I have said from the beginning that I am against vaccine mandates - although I did not see an issue with the COVID immunity pass that was proposed and then scrapped (i.e., someone who did not want to be vaccinated could provide proof of a previous infection, or a recent negative test).

I thought it was pretty revealing when people who did not want to be vaccinated were also not willing to do a LFT - it indicates their issue is with any measure taken to suppress coronavirus transmission, rather than with a specific vaccine.

Regarding incentives like doughnuts or pizza - I don't really see an problem. If someone is opposed to having a vaccine, a free treat should not sway them. This is why the UK was careful not to offer anything that a vulnerable person would feel unable to turn down (e.g., money).

Re mandates for healthcare workers - this is trickier, as vaccination requirements for HCPs is not a new concept, and the GMC states the expectation that staff will be innoculated against "relevant infectious diseases". I was still fully against them - particularly due to the greater impact of ethic minorities - but this is different scenario to that of the general population.

@foliageeverywhere

I thought it was pretty revealing when people who did not want to be vaccinated were also not willing to do a LFT - it indicates their issue is with any measure taken to suppress coronavirus transmission, rather than with a specific vaccine.

This ⬆️ is a a gross generalisation and completely wrong from my experience.

I feel from your statements. that you might not be capable of comprehending the gravity of the coercive measures that took place in many areas of the world (certainly less so in the UK). I mean no disrespect by that, as you seem to be a highly intelligent and precise person who has a strong moral compass.

I thought it was pretty revealing when people who did not want to be vaccinated were also not willing to do a LFT - it indicates their issue is with any measure taken to suppress coronavirus transmission, rather than with a specific vaccine.

This ⬆️ is a a gross generalisation and completely wrong from my experience.

If completely wrong and wasn't a general issue with any measure taken to suppress coronavirus, then why else someone would be unwilling to do either? @peppathe3rd

The goal of a COVID immunity pass was to reduce transmission on a population level at large events. People who did not want to be vaccinated and did not have a recent previous infection had the option of instead doing a free LFT.

@foliageeverywhere
I do not know of a single person unwilling to do either

I, for example, tested positive for CV in January 2021 - LFT and confirmed by PCR. Neither of my children caught it, but I kept them home for the entire isolation period because I was fearful of potentially passing the virus along. The school did not require that measure, but I chose that path out of a sense of civic duty.

Ah ok - I asked because you said:

This ⬆️ is a a gross generalisation and completely wrong from my experience.

So assumed you would elaborate why it's completely wrong!

@foliageeverywhere
I did.
a. you stated that people refusing vaccination also refused LFT tests - wrong.

b. you stated that people refusing vaccinations also refused to take LFT tests because of a cavalier attitude about spreading the virus - wrong.

I did not state either of these things - this seems uncessarily inflammatory tbh.

I won't repeat my posts as it's derailing the thread, but you can read them again!

@foliageeverywhere
These were your exact words...

I thought it was pretty revealing when people who did not want to be vaccinated were also not willing to do a LFT - it indicates their issue is with any measure taken to suppress coronavirus transmission, rather than with a specific vaccine.

Yep I'm aware given I wrote them in the last half hour! What you have said I said, has an entirely different meaning to what I actually said (what you handily copied and pasted above).

Again you seem to be nitpicking on something to detract away from the conversation - it's just repeating swerves on this thread.

First it was about children - I pointed out we did not have vaccine mandates for children.

Then it was about mandates for the general population - I pointed out that the only mandate proposed was COVID status pass - which allowed for anyone who didn't want to be vaccinated to be present a negative test, or previous immunity.

I think it's fair enough to point out that people who did not want to be vaccinated, nor were happy to do a LFT (at this point in time) were probably those that opposed any measure to suppress coronavirus transmission, rather than specifically opposing this vaccine.

As always as soon as you point out misinformation about vaccination, you get drawn into conversations about policy. I'm opposed to vaccine mandates - I think they're completely counterintuitive public health policy.

@foliageeverywhere

a. you stated that people refusing vaccination also refused LFT tests - wrong.

b. you stated that people refusing vaccinations also refused to take LFT tests because of a cavalier attitude about spreading the virus - wrong.

I did not state either of these things - this seems uncessarily inflammatory tbh.

I’m in a Scotland. We had mandates in the form of two jabs for large events and nightclubs and only after an uproar were they avoided for pubs and restaurants. It was utterly horrific

my niece took one as she was going to
uni and wanted to dance. She was 18. She had an odd side effect in the form of a skin infection on her face that we could never be sure was from the jab but she didn’t want to risk second and was shut out from student life. She has since dropped out.

NEVER tell me this isn’t massive. Massive. I will it forgive nor forget. And her health has recovered. She didn’t need the vaccine - she had already had covid and had remained well. Her natural immunity counted for nothing

she didn’t consent to the medical treatment. It was effectively coerced

@BeethovenNinth
Thank you for sharing this story, painful as it is to read. I am very happy that your niece has recovered physically, but I imagine the emotional scars are deep. I think we can rationally entertain varying analyses on data or stats or scientific research, but we will NEVER accept being told that the coercion by the governments, scientific and medical communities, fellow citizens, community organisations, etc. were not a new kind of evil that literally tore families apart, led to death and unimaginable grief, and will NEVER be forgotten. This is an argument that can never be won against us. It is just too powerful.

Thank you peppa she has had many sad conversations and I think it made her grow up quickly. That her own government could force this so she could life a normal life? When she had had covid?

I don’t think we will fully recover. As mentioned a close friend of a relative suffered an odd brain stem stroke after hers and died. No post mortem and it wasn’t discussed. Officially we have decided it was a coincidence but she was 47. It the only way forward. My SIL friend had the same. I’m saying nothing as I don’t know. Causation isn’t causality and all that but doubts remain. We will never know. These weren’t old people but younger people, in Scotland, doing as they were asked.

most people took one “for the team” to help stop the virus spreading. That was the message. That that message was effectively untrue hurts.

Emergency use vaccines have not been approved or licensed by US FDA but have been authorized to prevent COVID-19 in ages 12yrs+ (bivalent) and 6mos+ (monovalent). See Fact Sheets: cvdvaccine-us.com

This 👆is what Albert Bourla said on his twitter. The link is interesting. Infact he adds lots of links in his tweets which some might want to read.

I do not know of a single person unwilling to do either
@peppathe3rd I know 3 people weho refuse to do either. Fallen so far foen every conspiracy theory rabbit hole. They exist.

most people took one “for the team” to help stop the virus spreading. That was the message. That that message was effectively untrue hurts.

The thing is the message wasn't untrue - a couple of PPs have explained why, but this commentary from Prof Francis Balloux (who has always been pretty balanced regarding coronavirus suppression) is helpful:

Prof Francois Balloux
@ Balloux Francis

"This 'OMG the Pfizer CEO admits that Covid vaccines don't reduce transmission' furore is tiresome and unhelpful. Covid vaccines were not trialled for their effectiveness in reducing infection / transmission and neither the Pfizer or Moderna CEO promised they would at the time.
1/"

"What happened is that soon after the start of the vaccination campaign - before vaccine antibodies started waning (as they were predicted to do), and before Omicron emerged - Covid vaccination significantly reduced the risk of infection and transmission.
2/"

"Many people got carried away soon after the Covid vaccine rollout (including US public health officials) and the - at the time high - protection against infection / transmission was used as the main argument in favour of 'vaccine passports'.
3/"

"It should have been obvious from the beginning that Covid vaccine protection against infection / transmission was a transient benefit (whereas protection against severe disease and death would be long long-lasting).
4/"

"The poor communication and at times empty promises around Covid vaccines are regrettable as this has caused lots of anger, disappointment and distrust, which I have some understanding for. But it would still be good to stick to the facts about "who said, what, when, and why".
5/"

I haven't ever put a stick in my nose or had a vaccine (same as my DP). And I am in NO WAY down some rabbit hole! I choose my own path in life and refuse to be led. I look at both sides of a story and use my own brain to decide what is right and wrong - And it looks like people like us chose right!