Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

That's extraordinarily badly written. Heart problems have suddenly appeared across India and the UK? Whatever could that be from? Let's see. Lots to choose from! Sedentary lifestyles over the last two years, coupled with a rise in poor eating choices; stress level increases for various reasons; and Covid itself, of course - as a cardiovascular disease, known to precipitate further cardiovascular problems in the body.

But let's believe and spread propaganda instead.

@Dishh

It's unsurprising given that Peter Imanuelsen has no qualifications in statistics or science. I have no idea why @orzoisorange would link this nonsense, when there's dozens of commentaries from people actually qualified to comment.

I looked back at his twitter and other SM and it's pretty standard - pre pandemic he was busy doing things like denying the holocaust, claiming the moon landing never happened and that the earth is flat. He is the classic far right nationalist who expresses racist & homophobic views. Since then he's moved to whipping up hatred against immigrants, saying climate change doesn't exist, and of course, denying COVID and spreading anti-vaxxer nonsense.

He makes a career out of this, helped by people like orzoisorange who helpfully link his blog which is behind a paywall.

@orzoisorange - you've been so taken in by anti-vaccine disinformation campaigns that you don't care who you're linking to. Critical thinking indeed.

As I've said before on this thread - I have been pro-vaccine, had 3 jabs, I don't read conspiracy bollocks by randoms and I do believe in data.

I also currently have Pericarditis. I have not had Covid... I was shielding. I reported it to the Yellow Card Scheme. Funnily enough just this morning they have written back to me asking a LOT more questions. They are very interested.

This isn't a black and white - 'us v them' thing. It has to be far more nuanced than that. Some on this thread shouting down any voice of dissent to the vaccine will not encourage anyone to change their thinking, which is surely the aim.
Sure, call out links to disinformation... but at the same time acknowledge that nobody knows yet quite what the full effects of either Covid or the vaccine rollout will be. It is still very much a moveable feast... data and new information is arsing all the time.

I also acknowledge that if my situation was caused by the vaccine, that I am both in an unfortunate minority and even though I will not have any more jabs, my family is very happy to and I support that.

But stop it with the didactic, superior attitudes. Personal experience counts as well as data.

Personal experience counts as well as data.

Not when it comes to informing policy. The decision about which demographic groups it's worthwhile to offer vaccination to can't be based on anecdotes. This isn't how evidence based medicine works.

There's a huge difference between discussing side effects you've experienced and spreading misinformation.

I'm not sure why this is still trundling along, as @sleepwouldbenice says. There will be boosters offered to certain groups in the Autumn - it's an offer and no has to take it up if they don't want to, but it's best if this is an informed choice, rather than one persuaded by disinformation campaigns.

Of course personal experience counts but it has to be taken in context of wider experience and then discussing your personal medical experience with relevant, professional advisors, not random people or so called experts on social media!

Personal experience counts as well as data.

Not when it comes to informing policy. The decision about which demographic groups it's worthwhile to offer vaccination to can't be based on anecdotes. This isn't how evidence based medicine works.

Personal experience makes data! What else is the Yellow Card Scheme!

Yes, exactly, and data is what drives policy.

My point was that you can't use one person's anecdote to inform policy, but you can and do use a larger samples for exactly this.

And this is what we have - data from billions of vaccine doses, which has allowed us to detect prevalence of specific side effects.

This is contrasted against the risks of being unvaccinated, and used to help inform decision making about who should be offered vaccination.

Discounting this type of evidence synthesis in favour of anecdotes (which are often second and third hand), isn't logical.

@Pebble21uk

I also currently have Pericarditis. I have not had Covid... I was shielding. I reported it to the Yellow Card Scheme. Funnily enough just this morning they have written back to me asking a LOT more questions. They are very interested.

Pericarditis can be caused by all kinds of infections, injuries or diseases. Why jump straight away to 'vaccine reaction! when there are so many, more common, causes to choose from?

@foliageeverywhere I agree... but you also have to remember that we are still within the current situation - it is ongoing... and data can change!

You're not wrong, of course you're not. But my annoyance is with not looking at the fact there is a bigger picture somewhere down the line which we can't see yet. Proceed with caution, allow discussion. Don't shut people down... it only makes people push back harder.

@Dishh

Pericarditis can be caused by all kinds of infections, injuries or diseases. Why jump straight away to 'vaccine reaction! when there are so many, more common, causes to choose from?

You see this is exactly what I mean - deliberately antagonistic! Try and start an argument rather than a discussion - put me in my place, because obviously you know better!

My Pericarditis may well have been caused by an infection. I have told the Yellow Card Scheme I do not know if it has any relevance to my 3 Pfizer vaccines at all.I am leaving them to investigate and to weigh up my information alongside others who have reported.

BUT, I can tell you I have never had ANY heart issues before. I am not a drinker, or a smoker, I have no predispositions to any heart issues. I was in good health. My heartbeat has become much louder & faster gradually over the last few months. Then I get a mild lung infection (not Covid) and suddenly I am seriously ill in hospital for 8 days. Yes, totally anecdotal. Also totally unexpected. So I am allowed to question what has happened to me. I do think I know my own body better than anybody else.

I'm dropping out now - people just want arguments rather than discussion here.

Uhuh, and health policies are updated as more data becomes available, which can include deciding it is no longer worthwhile to offer vaccination to certain groups.

What this thread is trying to imply, is that people (and children!) are dying in droves because they were vaccinated 6-9 months ago. This is biologically implausible. This isn't how vaccines work.

This is why "mainstream" scientists are not concerned about it, and the media aren't reporting on it because it has no basis in fact.

@Pebble21uk

BUT, I can tell you I have never had ANY heart issues before. I am not a drinker, or a smoker, I have no predispositions to any heart issues. I was in good health. My heartbeat has become much louder & faster gradually over the last few months. Then I get a mild lung infection (not Covid) and suddenly I am seriously ill in hospital for 8 days. Yes, totally anecdotal. Also totally unexpected. So I am allowed to question what has happened to me. I do think I know my own body better than anybody else.

I wasn't being antagonistic nor starting an argument - just sharing another POV. That's okay, right? I'm pleased the cause of your pericarditis is being explored fully and you're open to all possibilities. Just from reading the above I'd suggest it could have something to do with your lung infection. You don't need to have suffered heart issues before nor have predispositions to develop pericarditis. Of course you're allowed to question what happened to you.

Just from reading the above I'd suggest it could have something to do with your lung infection.

Pericarditis is not a specific disease, it just describes inflammation of the pericardium. Viral infection is the most common cause, so I'd agree with statement above.

‘This isn’t how vaccines work’

to be fair, mRNA vaccines, using LPS, are very few new and have been rolled out to millions of people in the UK

for the booster programme to work, we have to explain why excess deaths aren’t connected to the programme. It is not enough to say there are no long term effects as we simply don’t know.

I really would like minds put at rest showing that excess deaths are unconnected. This couldn’t be too hard to show could it, based on vaccination status and immature deaths?

we need people reassured and boosted!

This is an interesting article from 2017 about the problems with mRNA technology and how toxic the delivery systems are. Theres a reason there were never any successful trials before they were given accelerated approval. Are we supposed to believe that these issues were completely solved since then, despite the covid vaccines using the same nano particles described in the article? Remember when we used to be able to discuss and report on these things? I truly believe that this will be the next pharma scandal when it comes out just how toxic these substances are

compare that article with the below, published around the same time (clue- Nature is a highly respected, prestigious scientific journal, yahoo news, not so much)

www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

your yahoo article has no references, nothing to back up what it says. It doesn’t mention toxicity, just “nasty side effects”, without saying in what species, let alone what classes as “nasty”. The mRNA issue is a side note in the article secondary to orphan drugs- it reads as a takedown of Moderna rather than actual researched facts.

if you read the Nature article you’ll see in vivo work on mRNA and the first mouse trials started in 1990. The first human vaccine trials in 2013. 10 years of vaccine trials- where is your source for “never any successful trials”. Rabies, HIV, flu, Zika.

you “truly believe” mRNA vaccines will be the next big scandal? When they’ve been in development for over 30 years and in trials for 10a and it’s not the vaccine itself but the efficacy of the inert delivery system that slowed things down.

yes the covid mRNA vaccine was the first fda approved vaccine brought to market. But there were others- for example an Ebola vaccine was developed but had no value in the US market…

It is not possible for a vaccine to cause long term emerging side effects. Or spontanously cause death months later.

It doesn't make a difference if the antigen comes from an inactivated pathogen, or from an mRNA or cDNA transcript. Whatever the mechanism, it can only last a very short time in the body before it is degraded. This why scientists (and anyone with medical knowledge), do not give weight to these claims.

Many scientists have commented on why we are seeing excess mortality increases and why it is not possible for the coronavirus vaccines to be the causal factor.

Instead of linking to these people, posters choose to find anyone who will affirm their beliefs, no matter how incredible (in the literal sense) they are.

These most recent claims have come from a blogger in his 20s, with no scientific or statistical qualifications, who has been making a career out of this since pre-pandemic (denying the holocaust, saying the earth is flat, the moon landing never happened, climate change isn't real, and spewing hateful, racist content.) It's just so tedious.

So in 2017 they were working to find a solution to a problem and you refuse to believe that in 3 years a large company with a huge budget found one?
That article proves nothing at all

@FromEden

You've linked a yahoo article from 2017, which doesn't actually support any of the claims you're making.

Any particular reason you've chosen to ignore the hundreds of articles published in scientific journals since then, written by actual scientists?

You've spent the past two years making claims about COVID and the vaccines that aren't true - might be worth considering why you're still flogging this horse when most of your peers have moved on to denying climate change.

I can’t believe this is still coming up.

The most reliable information is : the consensus of opinion from the most highly qualified professors/experts worldwide.

There will be robust, peer reviewed analysis - and this is what will feed the NHS guidance.

Random ‘experts’ on YouTube are not as reliable as this - neither is anecdotal evidence.

Totally agree. It's incredulous

Of course people should look to understand and question, especially if they have particular personal health concerns

But discuss your personal medical experience with relevant, professional advisors, not random people or so called experts on social media!

And this is what we have - data from billions of vaccine doses, which has allowed us to detect prevalence of specific side effects.

We don’t have data from billions of vaccine doses though. Billions of people have had the vaccines but what data do you think has been collected from them? It’s very difficult to get a doctor or anyone else (evidenced on this thread) to believe/accept that any post vaccines symptoms are anything other than coincidence.

What do you mean? Billions of vaccine doses have been given, and anyone given a dose is encouraged to report side effects (in the patient leaflet & instructions from the person given it, alongside huge media campagins etc about this issue)

Doesn't mean that everyone who experiences a side effect will report it, but a much higher proportion than for previous new vaccines/drugs, due to the sheer level of coverage.

It’s very difficult to get a doctor or anyone else (evidenced on this thread) to believe/accept that any post vaccines symptoms
Not sure what you mean by this either - post-marketing surveillance systems have identified side associated with the vaccines - such as CVST and myo/periocaarditis. There's a difference between being cautious about assuming every symptom experienced in a vaccinated person is causal, and not accepting side effects exist at all!