Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

I've noticed a discussion about an increase in excess deaths even when you take out covid deaths. In my general media consumption, including a detailed discussion on R4, the conversation has been around increased cardiovascular events which are possibly a covid impact as there is evidence of this being the case, the impact of delayed treatment/diagnoses, and the current incredible waiting times for A&E.

A quick google of the murkier parts of the discourse says IT'S THE VACCINE.

So I'm guessing the excess deaths story is what would be fuelling an increase in vaccine stories, if that's the sort of thing you read.

I can't believe that this still needs saying after this length of time. Some people still don't /won't understand the science of vaccines. If they don't get it now they never will.

Or do we only care about saving “granny” . In my child’s school in one class of 30 we have seen 2 dads die “suddenly” . They will be part of the excess deaths and this needs to be looked into and whatever the reason is we need to understand and address. At the moment it seems that many people won’t talk about it

pre pandemic my dd’s class lost two dads to sudden death. Back in the 80’s in my small primary (classes of 15) there was roughly one kid per year that lost a parent suddenly. We just notice more now.

it’s like the period disruption women are reporting. No one is saying the vaccine doesn’t do this. However all evidence points to the fact it’s a natural consequence of an immune response. We have never had a programme before where such a large proportion of adult menstruating females have been vaccinated before, and it’s highly likely this happens with every vaccine. We don’t see it because most vaccines are given to young children or elderly (in the case of flu), or not in numbers large enough to notice these patterns.

no one is saying vaccines don’t have side effects on an individual basis, or there are very rare serious consequences. What we are saying is the risk of the disease in an unvaccinated person is far higher than the risk of the vaccine.

Yup. It is truly depressing the number of people in this world who seem to find it so difficult to understand basic principles.

The risk of complications due to covid in healthy young people is very low. The vaccine doesn’t stop the spread so when the vaccine increases the risk factor for something you are unlikely to suffer from why put yourself at risk. Vaccine effacy based on Pfizer’s own data last weeks at best.

the fact is excess deaths are rising substantially . It could be covid, it could be the vaccine but this needs investigating and open discussion without anyone being villified.

Clearly the one thing that did work was the nudge and behavioural tactics

People are repeatedly getting covid in a heavily vaccinated population so where’s the immunity at a population level

the fact is excess deaths are rising substantially . It could be covid, it could be the vaccine

Why are you ignoring the actual discussion that is going on around excess deaths involving e.g. pressures on the NHS?

People are repeatedly getting covid in a heavily vaccinated population so where’s the immunity at a population level

in most it is now a mild illness, and people aren’t landing in ITU at the rates an unvaccinated population was.

if you have an immunity it doesn’t stop you getting a disease, it means your immune system can ramp up quicker as it already knows what it’s dealing with and overcome it before it has chance to take hold.

my child got mumps from an unvaccinated friend. He was hospitalised, in mine it was a mild 4 day illness. As an aside we are seeing an upsurge in mumps/measles etc as people are not getting children vaccinated.

current vaccination levels won’t eradicate covid, but it has changed it from a potentially life threatening disease to a generally mild illness.

don’t forget about the consequences to those who can’t be vaccinated- cancer patients etc. vaccination means they are less likely to catch it. A big deal if it’s your child with leukaemia…

@Reallyreallyborednow

Thank you for an excellent common sense post.

Herd immunity like many things is a little complication but to try and explain, where is the herd immunity with influenza so we don't need to break ourselves running vaccine sessions for Winter 'flu using predictions of which of the 144? sub types are estimated to be prevalent each season, many/most/all of which can have myriad antigenic drift like COVID seems to have?

Some virus are relatively stable hence a vaccination protects against that virus' evolution over years even with selection pressure to escape. Some are relatively less stable. It might be vaccines over somewhat better protection when whole virus COVID vaccines are widely available instead of those focusing on spike proteins that appear 'easier' for the virus to change in response to selection pressures. That said, there might be some instances when non-immunocompromised patients might be reinfected by the same COVID variant over time so something different might be going on and learned from unless they're not clearing the virus completely or a disease process that is somewhat odd over time is happening.

It's terrifying to me that all the anti vaxx rhetoric is also affecting uptake of MMR and other childhood immunisations. The platform anti vaxxers have, especially on SM is very damaging.

"if you have an immunity it doesn’t stop you getting a disease"

Well it does if it is sterilising immunity but that didn't happen with covid !

Haven't RTFT, don't have time this morning, but in case no-one else has posted this, please see the Debunk the Funk YT video re Dr Aseem Malhotra and how his claims aren't correct:

It's terrifying to me that all the anti vaxx rhetoric is also affecting uptake of MMR and other childhood immunisations

Imo it was heavy handed mandates, vsccime passes and social media censorship of any questioning of the covid vaccines that has destroyed a lot of trust more widely.

That's the cost of attempting to get as many people vaccinated as possible through nudging and social pressure.

Yes, to the extent that the WHO considers it one of the greatest threats to global public health.

Why are you ignoring the actual discussion that is going on around excess deaths involving e.g. pressures on the NHS?

The rise in excess deaths is being seen in several countries, and where the health service isn't under pressure. Eg: the US and across Europe

The excess deaths are mainly due to cardio vascular causes, not cancer or other illnesses: Surely if the excess deaths were due just to pressure on health services the cause of death would be more generalised among all illnesses?

Not if people are dying of heart attacks because an ambulance can’t get to them for 12 hours, which we know has been an issue.

Yes but excess deaths are in all countries and I'm not sure all countries have the same problem as the UK of delayed arrival times of ambulances.

So you would dismiss the collapse of frontline medical services and delays to diagnosis/treatment as a potential contributing factor to excess deaths in England on the basis that that doesn't apply nationally?

That should be 'internationally'

“Censorship of this discussion by media and big tech”

Do you mean by this the deletion of posts containing blatant anti-vax disinformation, as, for example, we have seen on this thread?

No it's the cost of people falling down rabbit holes through social media

It's actually social media that blocks anyone speaking out!

There are alternative platforms where you can find out more about the vaccines.
Always two sides to anything. Then most critical thinkers weigh it up after doing a bit of research - it's nothing to do with conspiracy theories.