Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

If people watch a video about alternative physics and think they understand rocket science more than rocket scientists then protest at rocket building sites and spit at rocket scientists and call them murderers who are simultaneously being paid to falsify rocket death certificates but (and the analogy breaks down) later when they want to go on holiday decide the vaccination is OK after all when they can't con a medic to support some spurious exemption after about 30 phone calls across the whole of the practice medic, nurse and ANP population then they might want to take a step back and do some self-examination.

EVERY vaccine has potential side effects - it's one of those things and a country's medical profession has to (on a large scale - in UK terms, organisations such as NICE; on a small scale - supporting individuals understanding that they can access the information to make an informed choice, or if the individual hasn't got capacity - following the best interests decision process) balance out the risks and benefits. It's the reason the UK doesn't have things like chickenpox in childhood vax schedules - because, for whatever reason, the powers that be have not judged the balance to be in the right direction.

That means that there WILL be people who suffer a range of side effects from the Covid jab - ranging from a sore arm and feeling a bit shit, up to death as a result of how their body responded to it. That's not conjecture - there are death certificates stating that as the cause of death. Societally - the judgement at the moment is that the risks and benefits are in the balance of benefit... no issues with that at all. We have a vax damage scheme for just that reason - because society also accepts that, while vaccinations are great... they DO have that risk element to them and some individuals are going to fall foul of the bad luck.

I do have issues with bullying and coercion to force people into taking the vaccine though - because one of the other fundamental principles in medicine is that people who have capacity to make choices about their body and health - have the right to make what others might deem "unwise" decisions. I work with it every day - those who have unsafe swallows but don't want to be left with limited diets or nil by mouth... in those cases - the job is very much supporting them and making sure they understand the risks and reasons behind it, and trying to facilitate them to make things as safe as they possibly can be - so yes, directing them that if they're GOING to eat buttered toast - taking the crusts off so the texture is consistent throughout etc. That's why I have always been incredibly against the vaccine mandates throughout.

As for the accusations of a mysterious flood of new "vax damaged" posters. I have been on MN over a decade, various people on here have seen the state of my hands in the past when they flare, and I've reported it under the yellow card scheme. However shutting down discussion also means that I have been just coping with it alone, and that discussion about potential ways to improve these symptoms is also being restricted - so I'm fucked either way really. I have had covid twice - once right at the start of the pandemic, and once in the beginning of the Omicron wave - long period of time after the first Covid episode until the vaccine - symptoms started then and continued after the omicron infection a long time after the second jab. Yes, it could be some mysterious reaction to the can of beans I ate back in June 2021... but the timing fits together and it's never something that can be directly proven - that's the nature of much of medicine - it's balance of probabilities and correlations rather than cause and effect.

I'm stepping back now as the tone changed overnight with "floods" of posters from both sides and insults being hurled.

One of the people you're labelling as an anti vaxxer I know personally. You know, in RL away from MN. Now obviously you won't believe that but it's true. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill/bot/far right conspiracist - whatever your term of choice is.

And know we don't know each other through far right forums either

One of the people you're labelling as an anti vaxxer I know personally

No idea who you're talking about.

I don't believe anyone has specially labelled any poster as an anti vaxxer. So you might have to be a bit more specific.

The people who appeared in the small hours use recognisably American language and draw 'research' from US sources.

And I know personally several people involved in the research, creation and approval of Covid vaccines
Not sure what your point is

I think we all know there are side effects with every medical treatment

There are also more widespread and more serious sequelae to diseases, both on the individual and on communities.

That does not invalidate the point that UK-centric mistrust of government is a behavioural issue in one country, and that vaccine research is international.

My point is, that people posting stuff that some posters disagree with are being accused of being part of some shadowy conspiracy, that they have been summoned overnight by a sinister batcall. I was just illustrating the point that at least one of them is a real person giving her real experience. She is being dismissed as an agent of a shadowy antivax site. It's pathetic.

@CoffeeWithCheese thank you for writing such a considered post and I am sorry that you are also one of the unlucky ones who had a bad experience with the vaccines. I too have been on Mumsnet for years and years (albeit under different names). The first time I posted about my vaccine experience (I had two, the reaction was the same each time so pretty unequivocal that the vaccine caused it) I was pretty shocked at the vitriol it received, but now I guess I am resigned to it. Like you I also found myself in a very lonely place with it for a long time. Thank goodness that voices are being raised though so hopefully treatments and help can start to come through for the worst of those affected.

That does not invalidate the point that UK-centric mistrust of government is a behavioural issue in one country, and that vaccine research is international.

Our voluntary vaccine uptake was much greater than in France and Germany.

My point is, that people posting stuff that some posters disagree with are being accused of being part of some shadowy conspiracy, that they have been summoned overnight by a sinister batcall.

The stuff “disagreed with” was blatant anti-covid vaccine disinformation and has been reported and deleted by MN so god knows why you’re getting so het up about it, unless you think that disinformation should be allowed to stand?

I am very confused by anyone who thinks MNers can't be horrendously condescending by virtue of their sex.

"You're incredibly condescending aren't you? Het up, indeed. You sound like a man"

The irony of this post. Incredibly condescending in itself, not to mention sexist.

That’s hilarious!

How nice to see a vaccine thread, I was just missing the viciousness of the 2021 debates.

Well, I don't understand the whole purpose of the thread other than to stir up a hornets' nest personally but, as threads aren't removed for disinformation, then that does need to be reported, called out, countered.

This was exactly what I was hoping wouldn’t happen.

”Hoppinggreen · Yesterday 22:05
Oh look, they’ve arrived!
Like buses aren't they?

You'd almost think there's been a call out in one of the fringe loon corners.”

I’ve posted on MN for 13 years, from the U.K. I have previous involvement with a drug developed some time ago, where life changing side effects were denied and patients were belittled and dismissed for asking for investigations - it happens, and sometimes drs, going by the peer reviewed research available at the time, get it wrong. When patients suffer what they believe are side effects they should be able to discuss this.

I am up to date with all vaccines, yet here I am, making the mistake of asking MNers when I am worried after hearing more stories about side effects. To be fair most of the answers have been helpful and reassuring. The dismissal, accusations of sounding like Trump, that this was somehow planned, are, frankly, pathetic.

Should I only post when I’ve exhausted all peer reviewed papers that I have access to (and unless you’re attached to a university or pay for access, their numbers are limited)?

The condescension actively pushes people away, and makes me wonder why I’m not allowed to discuss this without being shut down.

This is a forum predominantly for mothers, from all walks of life. Clearly I didn’t get the memo that I’d need a PhD before asking questions

Perhaps you didn't think before putting ramped up in your OP?

I'm also not sure of the point of this post. Surely the ship sailed a long time ago.

Ultimately it seems like the government don't particularly care for what happens to individuals.

Lots of people were exposed to very high infection risk for the "greater good" pre vaccine. Hospital and workers in care homes, key workers then education staff etc.

If some died or got long covid tough. Didn't matter as long as the NHS didn't collapse. Boris was reported as saying he would accept 50k deaths a year.

Post vaccine lots of people have caught covid multiple times and told to live with it. If you get long covid or even die, Tough luck.

If you took the vaccine (and in the UK) that was your choice and got side effects or died, tough - it was needed to reopen the economy and get on with it.

Were now faced with excess mortality. Maybe it is healthcare settings damaged, long term covid effects or possibly vaccine effects, and maybe a combination of all three. The government doesn't care it's a learn to live with situation

How so?
I’ve noticed an increase in stories about vaccine side effects and asked a question based on that.

Hmm.. OK. Ramped up suggests you think there's an agenda , and then your posts don't quite match that.

Semantics, I guess.

Well done for raising this on a thread . It’s perfectly ok to question and the media should be questioning why we are running at more excess deaths now particularly in ages 30-59 than the 5 year average . People will be quick to assume it’s associated with covid with little evidence but quick to dismiss that the vaccines could play a part.

The vaccines effacy very quickly wanes hence the need for multiple doses. There are many people suffering from vaccine injuries and they are just gaslit. What about their lives ? Or do we only care about saving “granny” . In my child’s school in one class of 30 we have seen 2 dads die “suddenly” . They will be part of the excess deaths and this needs to be looked into and whatever the reason is we need to understand and address. At the moment it seems that many people won’t talk about it

Have you?
I suppose it depends on what media you look at.