Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Would you consider canceling a holiday/family visit if COVID was surging there?

271 replies

Muffster · 18/07/2022 22:16

The idea of flying to visit family and stay with them for a summer holiday is now giving me concern: 1 in 19 people where my family live have COVID, there is a surge going on and it hasn’t peaked yet.

There are very few people masking, case numbers are not accurately reported, people do not have to stay home when positive/unwell so infections continue and the health care system there appears to be under serious strain.

would you fly over and visit now?

OP posts:
Quartz2208 · 20/07/2022 22:13

Muffster · 20/07/2022 22:04

Thank you - let’s hope so. Autumn is going to be tough I think.

In terms of the pressure on the NHS due to all the other stuff yes.

In terms of COVID - who knows. It has never really followed the path of any other and does seem to mutate into different variants incredibly quickly 'Centaurus' is the 5th subvariant of Omicron which is the 13th variant and the 5th big variant

Muffster · 20/07/2022 22:15

balalake · 20/07/2022 17:31

To answer the original question.

A lot would depend on the family I was visiting and how they act given Covid has not gone away. All of the relatives of mine I might visit work with older people and are fastidious about face coverings, testing and basic hygiene practices.

Compared with the UK, most countries seem to at least have some actions to recognise that Covid is here in numbers for a while.

Thank you - yes, really good points.
Tough when a guest in someone else’s home, and will need to have this conversation with all the extended family in advance probably

OP posts:
Muffster · 20/07/2022 22:17

Quartz2208 · 20/07/2022 22:13

In terms of the pressure on the NHS due to all the other stuff yes.

In terms of COVID - who knows. It has never really followed the path of any other and does seem to mutate into different variants incredibly quickly 'Centaurus' is the 5th subvariant of Omicron which is the 13th variant and the 5th big variant

The one that finally got a name! All the numbers and referring to them all as Omicron variants isn’t helpful - Centaurus was named by a random bloke on Twitter and it actually caught on.

I think the next variants should be named after seized Russian oligarch yachts

OP posts:
Quartz2208 · 20/07/2022 22:20

@Muffster quite!

On the positive side (if you can have one) Omicron has now been the main variant for longer than any of the others and seems to be creating subvariants and an Omicron vaccine could very well be out by the end of the year.

MrsSkylerWhite · 20/07/2022 22:24

OP: you are remarkably well informed. Do you have a professional interest?

orangeisthenewpuce · 20/07/2022 22:25

I wouldn't cancel, I'd go. Covid doesn't worry me.

Wouldloveanother · 20/07/2022 22:35

CinnamonSwirlGirl · 19/07/2022 00:18

TBH I’d delay the holiday if you can. Why take the risk if you’re coming from somewhere safer and where people are being more responsible? I don’t know what your circumstances are, but could you see how things pan out over the next few weeks? Some (reputable) scientists think that we will see the peak in the next few weeks in the U.K. At the very least it sounds as though it will be hard for you to relax and enjoy your time x

Until when? It’s been 2.5 years.

Muffster · 20/07/2022 22:36

Quartz2208 · 20/07/2022 22:20

@Muffster quite!

On the positive side (if you can have one) Omicron has now been the main variant for longer than any of the others and seems to be creating subvariants and an Omicron vaccine could very well be out by the end of the year.

Fingers crossed. Walter Reed (US army)Institute of Research working on pan-coronavirus vaccine too which would be quite amazing. Not heard much about that for several months though.
yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/pan-coronavirus-super-vaccine?

OP posts:
Muffster · 20/07/2022 22:39

MrsSkylerWhite · 20/07/2022 22:24

OP: you are remarkably well informed. Do you have a professional interest?

Thanks - no, not paid. Am involved in some voluntary community preparedness things; the deep interest in COVID, pandemics, etc ties in with my former work

OP posts:
Planetearthisscrewed · 20/07/2022 22:49

Interesting read, genie is out of the bottle though. You may well be right but no one's going back to 2020 not even vaguely. Not in the UK.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 21/07/2022 07:44

Muffster · 20/07/2022 22:11

  1. Masks in crowded places/indoors is what many public health authorities are saying is needed to help with this latest BA.5 surge, not lockdowns, bubbles, visitor restrictions. Outside meetings with friends suggested not mandated. (I’m talking about Public Health in other countries like Canada, USA, for clarity, although several UK experts are saying it too eg: British Medical Journal editors)
  2. Let’s say N95 masks are cheap - say 3 for a quid, or free. Free masks are being used as a public health tool in New Zealand and US.
See? Not the same as lockdowns

Don't be so bloody patronising. Nowhere did I say it was the same as a lockdown. It doesn't have to be a lockdown to be a restriction.

KeepScrapingBy · 21/07/2022 08:12

I’d go. Life is too short. We’ve had 2 years of restrictions, now we’re finally free to travel. Just avoid crowded indoor places for the week before you go and while you’re away. Wear masks on the plane if you’re worried. Go and have a great time!

WhenIgrowolder · 21/07/2022 08:30

Muffster · 19/07/2022 22:11

Wow at some of you.
anyway, here’s the British Medical Journal editorial, written by the editors-in-Chief of the BMJ, yesterday. Maybe have a read. I’m going to post the whole damn thing

The NHS is not living with covid, it’s dying from it

The government must be honest about the threat the pandemic still poses

Today may be the most difficult day the NHS has ever experienced. The headlines will focus on the pressures created by the heatwave and that most visible sign of healthcare failure—ambulances queuing outside hospitals.1 But, as readers of The BMJ and HSJ know all too well, this brutal situation is the culmination of many factors, which include but are not limited to prolonged periods of underfunding in the past decade,2 lack of an adequate workforce plan,34 and a cowardly and shortsighted failure to undertake social care reform.5

There is one more problem. Most people (including many in the NHS) are so tired of it that they are wilfully pushing it to the back of their minds, but now is the time to face the fact that the nation’s attempt to “live with covid” is the straw that is breaking the NHS’s back. In 2020 and 2021 the NHS coped with pandemic peaks by stopping or slowing much of its routine work. 2022 was meant to be the year of full speed recovery, when we would build back better and fairer, when record waiting lists in elective care, cancer diagnosis and treatment, and mental health would begin to reduce, and the workload on primary care would begin to ease.

One of the assumptions underpinning this hope was that covid-19 would be nothing more than an irritant for most of the year, with perhaps a winter wave in December. It is now July, and not counting the first omicron surge that peaked in January, the UK and the NHS have experienced two further covid waves,6 with gaps of just under three months between peaks (coronavirus.data.gov.uk/). The current wave of hospital admissions78 driven by the BA.4 and BA.5 variants is likely to peak in the next few days, but other variants will be ready for global distribution soon.9

Weekly hospital admissions to English hospitals, for those who test positive for covid-19, have averaged just over 9000 in the first six and half months of the year. In 2021 the number was just under 6000, with most admissions concentrated in the first two months of the year. The average in 2020 was just under 7000.10

The omicron variant is less severe, and just under 40% of hospital patients are being treated “primarily” for the disease.10 But a covid-19 diagnosis is a complicating factor for many conditions, worsening outcomes and lengthening recovery times. The need to keep people with covid-19, uninfected people, and contacts apart means an increase in effort. Higher rates of covid-19 in hospitals and the community also result in more staff sickness, further hollowing out an already overstretched11 and exhausted workforce.12

What the hospital admissions figures hide is a rising tide of people with long covid, now at two million13 and likely to be a major burden on the health service14 and the nation’s productivity, for a generation. And there are many other much less recognised but still deeply disturbing effects of the continuing pandemic, including endangering the NHS’s supply of blood.15

Government complacency
How is the government responding to this crisis? Largely by pretending it is not happening or implying it is all under control. In the House of Lords last week16 government health spokesperson Lord Kammal repeated the spurious line: “We managed to break the link between infections and hospitalisations and hospitalisations and death.”

But the link between infections and hospital admissions has clearly not been broken, even if you just consider those being treated “primarily” for the disease. As for deaths, the latest ONS figures17 indicate just under 24 000 fatalities “involving covid” in the first six months of 2022. Yes, that figure is substantially smaller than the 66 000 recorded in the first half of 2021, but it is more than the 21 000 people who died in the last six months of that year. Excess deaths from all causes are also still running above five year averages before the pandemic.

The constant pressure created by repeated covid waves is already the main reason that the NHS is nowhere near reaching the activity levels needed to begin to recover performance. By now the NHS had hoped to be operating better than before the pandemic; instead elective activity is around 10% below 2019.18

The Conservative Party leadership contest—which will deliver the UK’s next prime minister—is shedding little light on the crisis in the NHS and the government’s failing covid policy. The candidates seem more keen to talk about bringing in the army to shake up the NHS19 or criticise “unsustainable”20 spending on healthcare than tackle the immediate and pressing needs of the service. As the NHS is in crisis, health is barely mentioned in leadership debates.

What is especially concerning—and makes the decline of the NHS a more realistic concern than it has been for decades—is the lack of great political, public, or media outcry about the covid-driven collapse in services.

Reintroducing pandemic measures
At no other time in the past 50 years have so many parts of the NHS been so close to ceasing to function effectively. The heart of the problem is the failure to recognise that the pandemic is far from over and that a return to some of the measures taken in the past two years is needed.

Existing public health advice to wear masks in crowded places, ensure good ventilation, and test regularly need to be communicated much more powerfully and widely. This should include a return to mask wearing in healthcare settings and on public transport, as well as re-introduction of free tests for the public.21 Vaccination is the fourth pillar of action. Large sections of the population,22 particularly ethnic minorities and younger age groups, are still not fully vaccinated.

Other measures might include working from home when possible and restrictions on some types and sizes of gathering. The government must also work out how it will support the sections of the population and the economy that will be affected by those measures. The blueprint for managing the pandemic was described in the “vaccine plus strategy” proposed by Greenhalgh and others in The BMJ in January 2022.23

Above all, the government must stop gaslighting the public and be honest about the threat the pandemic still poses to them and the NHS. Being honest with the public will have two positive results, it will encourage the public to modify behaviour and, we hope, provoke urgent reflection about how the NHS is in such a mess so soon after the nation was applauding it on their doorsteps.
www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o1779

Excess deaths have come right down - hovering just below and just above 5 year average line for 2022 according to link below. You can't just look at excess deaths on one particular day/week.

www.statista.com/statistics/1131428/excess-deaths-in-england-and-wales/

WhenIgrowolder · 21/07/2022 08:38

Muffster · 20/07/2022 16:02

“Evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 reinfection adds risk of all-cause mortality, hospitalization and adverse health outcomes during acute and post-acute SARS-CoV-2 reinfection, and that the risk and burden may increase in a graded manner according to the number of infections.”

There is no herd immunity.
There is no evolving to be mild.
There is increased evidence of post-acute COVID immune dysregulation & the potential increase in acquired impaired immunity as a result. People will keep getting sick and not just with Covid but with impaired immunity, from other diseases as well.

….this needs to break through to more people. It’s terrible and it’s expensive and people don’t want to hear it and usually they attack the messengers.
Public health protections increase access to in-person education and help people continue to work. That is literally the point of them.

One source for the immune dysregulation stuff, there are many: this is public health Ontario today for example

www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/Documents/nCoV/voc/2022/07/evidence-brief-ba4-ba5-risk-assessment-jul-8.pdf?sc_lang=en

You say there's 'no evolving to be mild' but there is research that states Omicron is milder?

www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o922

SexyLittleNosferatu · 21/07/2022 09:34

Muffster · 20/07/2022 22:05

(Quick aside: it’s not possible to mute or block people on MN is it? I haven’t used this site for years, not sure if I’ve missed it if now a feature. It sure helps having this function available when discussing COVID on other social media)

You want to block people who have a view that you disagree with?

I thought you had posted asking for opinions on your holiday?

amicissimma · 21/07/2022 10:33

You poor thing, OP. You seem to be very anxious about Covid. Is this the result of your government's messaging?

As you can see from this thread, there are still people in the UK who feel roughly as you do. They are free to stay away from people, wear masks etc, but the majority don't agree with them and resist their attempts to force their preferred restrictions/mitigations, call them what you will, on others.

We have had two years of people posting their views, supported by their carefully selected publications from the 'scientists' (some are, many are not, or certainly not in a related field) whose views match their own. They carefully ignore opposing publications, of which there are many, also many flawed. But this has just made the majority realise that out of 10 experts there will be 10 views, some roughly correct, some wildly out. The best thing we can all do is make our own risk assessments.

Referring to the British government as 'gaslighting' and 'denying' doesn't sound very rational. The figures have been published regularly and are clear for us all to see. After more than 2 years of living in a large population with Covid waves moving through, most of us can see for ourselves what effect, if any, various restrictions/mitigations have, both on Covid and on all other aspects of life. Life, with its challenges, rewards, requirements and so on has not gone away just because a new virus appeared.

I suggest that if you come one of two things will happen. Either you will be quite terrified and try to hide away and maybe avoid Covid and return home in an even more anxious state about it than you seem to be already, or you will see that millions of people are living happy, unrestricted lives, the majority, if asked, will say that they've had Covid in much the same way that they'd say they've had a cold, and you will wonder what you were so worried about. I hope it's the latter scenario. It can't be good for a body or mind to spend a lot of time as highly alerted as your posts suggests you are.

BeenToldComputerSaysNo · 21/07/2022 11:12

I think OP said she was anxious as a result of our government's policy, not her government's policy. Maybe worth rereading her posts if you missed that? There is a lot of lying by government - kids don't spread/get ill, more likely to be hit by a bus, protective ring around care homes, 2 weeks to flatten curve, NHS coped, the phrase post covid, got out of covid, no acknowledgement of short or long term effect of lots of sick people on economy, education, health etc. Yougov poll showed more people in favour of keeping 'restrictions' than not when they were removed.

starcatfish · 21/07/2022 11:34

WhenIgrowolder · 21/07/2022 08:38

You say there's 'no evolving to be mild' but there is research that states Omicron is milder?

www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o922

Omicron has not evolved from earlier variants like delta though, they both arose separately from earlier points in the family tree. So Omicron is not a refinement of delta that did better because it's milder, in that sense. It is mild in effect thanks to all of vaccination though as I understand it not necessarily any milder in someone unvaccinated.

Covid is a massive pita. I would love to believe that it's fine to get it lots of times, but I'm not sure that's going to be true for our generation. It seems to have too many damaging effects, especially vascular, to cause that bit too much illness and disruption. You don't need to have full blown anxiety about something to think it's best avoided as much as possible, for as many people as possible.

pinklavenders · 21/07/2022 12:01

Yougov poll showed more people in favour of keeping 'restrictions' than not when they were removed.

A quick google contradicts this!

yougov.co.uk/topics/health/articles-reports/2021/12/02/english-attitudes-covid-19-restrictions-largely-un

BeenToldComputerSaysNo · 21/07/2022 12:37

How so? That article mentions returning to strict lockdown measures. It shows variation in support for specific measures e.g. 83% supported reintroducing mandatory face masks in shops and on public transport, whereas only 23% supported reintroducing pub closures. I was referring to stopping (what were existing) mandatory measures such as self isolation. twitter.com/yougov/status/1495341036889071617?s=21&t=dB5EB8xlBYeqTEpRloC9LA

Muffster · 21/07/2022 13:40

I wanted to block/mute people who did not engage with the conversation (in any way) but merely posted insults. It’s what I do on other social media eg;
q. ’should I do x?’
Response A ’yes, do it because…’
Response B: ’no don’t do it because…’
Response C: ‘I hope you get COVID/you think you’re so clever’

Response C - I’d usually block on Twitter for example.

OP posts:
Muffster · 21/07/2022 13:53

BeenToldComputerSaysNo · 21/07/2022 11:12

I think OP said she was anxious as a result of our government's policy, not her government's policy. Maybe worth rereading her posts if you missed that? There is a lot of lying by government - kids don't spread/get ill, more likely to be hit by a bus, protective ring around care homes, 2 weeks to flatten curve, NHS coped, the phrase post covid, got out of covid, no acknowledgement of short or long term effect of lots of sick people on economy, education, health etc. Yougov poll showed more people in favour of keeping 'restrictions' than not when they were removed.

Thank you, yes, this is the problem I have with the UK. Messaging matters, it affects population behaviour and most people don’t have time to dive into what public health experts, researchers, epidemiologists etc in multiple countries are sharing on a regular basis (including some people in the UK Gov it seems). People also cherry pick what they want to hear and are subject to confirmation and optimism bias. Long COVID and the disabling effects barely mentioned, kids can indeed spread it and have long term impacts themselves etc.

There’s also evidence that various right-wing libertarian pressure/lobby groups with murky funding linked to Koch Group like UsForThem, HART, Urgency of Normal & signers of the Great Barringdon Declaration had/continue to have undue access and effect on decision making in UK government. Despite what they present being condemned as misleading and false by the majority of epidemiologists.

OP posts:
Muffster · 21/07/2022 14:08

amicissimma · 21/07/2022 10:33

You poor thing, OP. You seem to be very anxious about Covid. Is this the result of your government's messaging?

As you can see from this thread, there are still people in the UK who feel roughly as you do. They are free to stay away from people, wear masks etc, but the majority don't agree with them and resist their attempts to force their preferred restrictions/mitigations, call them what you will, on others.

We have had two years of people posting their views, supported by their carefully selected publications from the 'scientists' (some are, many are not, or certainly not in a related field) whose views match their own. They carefully ignore opposing publications, of which there are many, also many flawed. But this has just made the majority realise that out of 10 experts there will be 10 views, some roughly correct, some wildly out. The best thing we can all do is make our own risk assessments.

Referring to the British government as 'gaslighting' and 'denying' doesn't sound very rational. The figures have been published regularly and are clear for us all to see. After more than 2 years of living in a large population with Covid waves moving through, most of us can see for ourselves what effect, if any, various restrictions/mitigations have, both on Covid and on all other aspects of life. Life, with its challenges, rewards, requirements and so on has not gone away just because a new virus appeared.

I suggest that if you come one of two things will happen. Either you will be quite terrified and try to hide away and maybe avoid Covid and return home in an even more anxious state about it than you seem to be already, or you will see that millions of people are living happy, unrestricted lives, the majority, if asked, will say that they've had Covid in much the same way that they'd say they've had a cold, and you will wonder what you were so worried about. I hope it's the latter scenario. It can't be good for a body or mind to spend a lot of time as highly alerted as your posts suggests you are.

I am not anxious as in anxiety disorder, I am risk-aware and probably over-informed. I have tried hard to keep up with a broad range of expert views during the pandemic and I can see how 90% + generally agree on most things and 10% are more fringe, often politically motivated, and I see how that 10% then gets given equal airtime by some media attempting to both-sides issues/data and how the 10% are amplified by, for example, anti mask or anti vaccine people, often aided by right wing media. My background is in online radicalisation and counter extremism. It’s depressing to watch certain patterns repeat.

Risk assessment on a personal level is easy to manage here where I live. My son attends school, goes to play dates etc. We test regularly. We meet and socialize with friends outside, we eat outside. I mask in shops.

I have various autoimmune issues, am at high risk for clots and on medication for that, husband had high blood pressure - and COVID is strongly associated with endothelial and vascular damage, neurological damage. It is prudent to minimize risk, for us. And especially as we hope to visit elderly family who themselves have cardiovascular and other health issues.

Living in the UK would have involve a higher level of risk, for us especially as the NHS is under severe strain. And right now the BA.5 variant is peaking, which seems to be walloping people who’ve managed 2.5 years without getting it previously.

Knowing the risks and trying to assess them isn’t living in fear, it’s accepting life has changed - something millions of people have had do, especially those with underlying health issues.
Listening to disabled people who have been through all this for decades, pre COVID is very helpful.

OP posts:
Quartz2208 · 21/07/2022 14:13

@Muffster very few people would believe anything the Government says right now (if indeed we even have one).

Messaging would not make any difference at all - and I am not entirely sure it ever would.

Its not that people dont have the time for the most part it is that they simply dont want to

And the UK isnt alone with this at all the US/Europe is culturally quite similar in that vein

People also cherry pick what they want to hear and are subject to confirmation and optimism bias. Long COVID and the disabling effects barely mentioned, kids can indeed spread it and have long term impacts themselves etc.

Everyone is very aware kids spread it - most kids have had it at least once now but that is part of the confirmation bias

I do admire you for thinking that somehow if the message got out and if the Government changed then this would be different - but I standby the fact that at the start I said within 2 years it would be over because that is the attention span for anything.

What I will say from your first post is that there is every chance that this surge has peaked -

Muffster · 21/07/2022 15:00

Thanks - yes, hopeful it has peaked and going down. Just starting to go up where I am, cases doubled in a week.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread