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Would you consider canceling a holiday/family visit if COVID was surging there?

271 replies

Muffster · 18/07/2022 22:16

The idea of flying to visit family and stay with them for a summer holiday is now giving me concern: 1 in 19 people where my family live have COVID, there is a surge going on and it hasn’t peaked yet.

There are very few people masking, case numbers are not accurately reported, people do not have to stay home when positive/unwell so infections continue and the health care system there appears to be under serious strain.

would you fly over and visit now?

OP posts:
Wishfulthinking1977 · 24/07/2022 20:29

Tbh I don't think this thread was made to gauge people's opinions on whether the op should travel to the UK, it seems more about questioning the countries response and promoting a more aggressive and harsh reaction which possibly the op would like to see here? Unfortunately these restrictions/protections have shown no Effectiveness within the community but seems to be causing economic downturns and societal division within the populations.

ApplesandBunions · 25/07/2022 14:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Muffster · 25/07/2022 14:27

I stopped posting because I couldn’t see any point in further engagement and it wasn’t helping my stress levels about this essential trip. If I speak up for masks, ventilation, and increased testing during surges people don’t want to hear it. The point of the thread for me was to try to ascertain risk in traveling to the U.K. and likelihood of one demographic (the demographic I’m in and am most likely to encounter during the visit) being open to taking some temporary measures to counteract uncontrollable spread.

It looks that the majority here are not open to simple behaviour changes like masking with respirators during surges, there is little or no appetite to protect others from the virus. That confirmed what I thought was the case and has been factored into our plans to attempt to not get the virus travelling to the U.K., in the U.K or traveling back from the U.K.

I don’t fancy our chances much, I think it is highly likely one or more of us will pick it up despite all we try to do. We are in the U.K. for two weeks, and need to visit and stay with three sets of elders with health vulnerabilities, one baby, one toddler, one cancer-surviving immune compromised sibling, one immune-compromised sibling taking arthritis drugs, DH and I have our own health issues, it’s going to be really hard to manage. But the alternative is not seeing family for another year.

the ableism is upsetting and I’m trying to manage my stress levels as we spend thousands to travel to see people we love and may not be able to see if we end up having to isolate and are unwell - and how to manage isolation when we are supposed to be staying with family.

OP posts:
Muffster · 25/07/2022 14:39

Re where I live, I think the island did the best it could trying to protect the 70k population with fewer than 40 Covid beds ICU capacity, this was why the borders closed. And yes the lockdown was really hard, and unfortunately expatriate workers had to understand they were not entitled to limited government support, although the government and local charities did what they could to support people unable to leave, people who were unable to eat. Support, loans, training for local businesses was implemented, stipends for workers who couldn’t earn when tourism stopped was introduced, millions were spent trying to keep people alive. The effort by the government and community to save lives was immense.

There were indeed occasions of families being stuck in isolation lasting weeks due to household transmission - but test-to-exit regulations were adapted once health authorities understood PCR safe test levels meant it was okay for some to exit if they were no longer infectious. Quarantine rules were strict and distressing to live under but it worked - community transmission was eliminated and almost everyone was vaccinated. The emergency field hospital never had to be used.

Nobody handled it perfectly but I think we did better than many places.
Anyway - thanks for participating in this thread.
it helped me get clarity

OP posts:
Quartz2208 · 25/07/2022 14:49

@Muffster the people you are visiting though - how are they coping with being in the UK? I can see why protecting yourself and your children from it but if they are here and out and about their risk isnt going to increase by you visiting

When are you visiting? The cases are definitely coming down - check out the data thread on the covid board.

And the other thing is if cases are rising where you are do you think it is going to be harsher restrictions and able to get back in

Quartz2208 · 25/07/2022 15:03

A new variants of concern technical briefing has been published.
Here is a thread by Meg Kall summarising the main points:
twitter.com/kallmemeg/status/1551325004079534080

This was from the data thread might be useful to read as a summary of kind of where we are

Muffster · 25/07/2022 15:04

@Quartz2208 the people I’m visiting have all managed so far by shielding. For 2.5 years.
They recognise the very high risks of travel for example so they would wait a few days before meeting someone who’d had to travel on a transatlantic flight, and ask them to test, twice, and even then they’d meet outside. Most of them wouldn’t travel by air themselves now. My dad did recently get Covid, when he had to fly to Scotland for a funeral. He’s been pretty unwell since but is slowly recovering.

they drive, rather than trains and buses, they masks inside like we do, etc

The problem is we are going to roll up on their doorsteps having likely been exposed on the flight, and airport, because the hotboxing of unmasked passengers in queues and when boarding/deplaning - when the inflight HEPA isn’t on - is a huge risk. We won’t know for 3-4 days if we are positive. And if we are positive, we can’t then execute the remainder of our visiting plans, even if only mildly symptomatic. We are likely going to hire a car so we can avoid public transport and meet family outside, assuming we are well enough.

we then have to get back here, somehow, symptom free and non-infectious ready for DS to start middle school and slap bang in peak hurricane risk season.

It is really fucking stressful. If it was just a holiday I’d have cancelled. But it’s family whom we haven’t seen in U.K. since summer 2019, so here we are.
All my efforts would be likely much more successful if there was some appetite to mitigate spread by decreasing airborne viral load in the U.K. but here we are.

The thread is stressing me out more so I’m going to stop looking at MN for a bit, I had a good read around, I see how things are, my focus is better elsewhere right now, like getting hurricane prep and back to school prep done now whilst we are all healthy as opposed to trying to do it post-Covid and last minute after traveling back from the U.K.

OP posts:
ApplesandBunions · 25/07/2022 15:04

Fair enough OP you've come back, good for you.

Basically, I still think as I did at the start. You've come from a place whose minute population and relatively geographically isolated position did allow it to manage covid quite well until very recently, in a way that was never remotely open to the UK, so that's bound to be a huge culture shock. You're going to find a real diversity of views on covid and precautions here, stemming from lived experience of the pandemic, and your best chance of enjoying your visit is to do as much work as you can on accepting that before you come.

On the subject of ableism, the use of the term simple for behaviour like masking is problematic. What you mean there is that it's simple for you. That terminology universalises your experiences and fails to consider difficulties others might have.

That is also a good point from quartz about getting back in. I personally didn't feel comfortable leaving the UK until we were in a place where there would clearly be no restrictions on returnees. Is that definitely not going to come up?

TheKeatingFive · 25/07/2022 15:21

It's entirely up to you OP. But bear in mind you may not get the chance again. People don't live forever.

As for your opinions on the U.K. handling of the pandemic, I doubt anyone cares what you think. Just as I'm sure you don't care much about other peoples judgements on your country.

Come/don't come, whatever, it's of no consequence to anyone but yourself and your relatives.

Quartz2208 · 25/07/2022 15:23

@Muffster putting all that together I dont think it is wise for you to travel given the circumstances you describe is wise. If they have been shielding now is not the time to visit. And given what you have said/I have gleaned about where you are from a response from them for this wave (which has the potential to knock the others out of the water) is high.

I would rearrange

IcedPurple · 25/07/2022 17:31

Wishfulthinking1977 · 24/07/2022 20:29

Tbh I don't think this thread was made to gauge people's opinions on whether the op should travel to the UK, it seems more about questioning the countries response and promoting a more aggressive and harsh reaction which possibly the op would like to see here? Unfortunately these restrictions/protections have shown no Effectiveness within the community but seems to be causing economic downturns and societal division within the populations.

I agree. Very obvious that the poster has already made her mind up and is not actually seeking advice. Pretty transparent agenda here.

LovinglifeAF · 26/07/2022 11:51

pretty much everyone has vulnerable relatives OP you aren’t unique. You seem convinced Covid is a massive risk and a huge disaster for everyone which just isn’t true.

TheKeatingFive · 26/07/2022 15:25

All my efforts would be likely much more successful if there was some appetite to mitigate spread by decreasing airborne viral load in the U.K. but here we are.

You can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better, but there's no evidence it would make the blindest bit of difference.

The situation is what it is, you make your decisions accordingly. I personally find the idea that we are able to control infectious disease outside of extraordinary measures like lockdowns quaint in its 2020 naivety, but there you have it.

Tougherpolicies · 27/07/2022 09:49

Totally agree with you TheKeatingFive but then I've been nodding along to all of your posts for the last two years!

ApplesandBunions · 27/07/2022 18:48

In fairness to OP, there are people who were living in the UK while their favoured restrictions failed who still continue to advocate for them. OP is at least coming from a place where those things might be viewed as having worked, even if it was the isolation and minute population size that actually did the heavy lifting. One can more easily understand naivety in that context.

SexyLittleNosferatu · 27/07/2022 19:49

Tougherpolicies · 27/07/2022 09:49

Totally agree with you TheKeatingFive but then I've been nodding along to all of your posts for the last two years!

Me too. I have to stop myself commenting "same" sometimes, because I look like a fangirl stalker 😅

speakingofart · 28/07/2022 18:28

I think someone with sufficient racist/ classist traits to dismiss people being unable to work/ earn/ eat as “unfortunate” would do well not to scold others for ableism.

To say nothing of the fact that you happily ignore anyone who has a disability or health condition that means you can’t wear a mask…

starcatfish · 28/07/2022 18:42

TheKeatingFive · 26/07/2022 15:25

All my efforts would be likely much more successful if there was some appetite to mitigate spread by decreasing airborne viral load in the U.K. but here we are.

You can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better, but there's no evidence it would make the blindest bit of difference.

The situation is what it is, you make your decisions accordingly. I personally find the idea that we are able to control infectious disease outside of extraordinary measures like lockdowns quaint in its 2020 naivety, but there you have it.

I'll bite - you don't think we can control infectious disease at all without lockdowns? What do you think public health departments have been doing your whole life? What do you think infection control in hospitals does? Why do you think we do things like wash our hands after going to the toilet and stay home when we've got d&v? Why do mosquito nets get used in countries with endemic malaria? Why do we have protocols for safe food handling, and for the number of doors between kitchens and bathrooms? What is the point of clean drinking water? Why 'catch it, bin it, kill it?' for snotty tissues? Why condoms to block transmission of STIs?

We do all sorts of things to control infectious disease. For some reason people are very keen to shrug and say there's no point doing anything more like that for covid, but just because they say that, doesn't mean it's true.

IcedPurple · 28/07/2022 19:10

starcatfish · 28/07/2022 18:42

I'll bite - you don't think we can control infectious disease at all without lockdowns? What do you think public health departments have been doing your whole life? What do you think infection control in hospitals does? Why do you think we do things like wash our hands after going to the toilet and stay home when we've got d&v? Why do mosquito nets get used in countries with endemic malaria? Why do we have protocols for safe food handling, and for the number of doors between kitchens and bathrooms? What is the point of clean drinking water? Why 'catch it, bin it, kill it?' for snotty tissues? Why condoms to block transmission of STIs?

We do all sorts of things to control infectious disease. For some reason people are very keen to shrug and say there's no point doing anything more like that for covid, but just because they say that, doesn't mean it's true.

Which of the measures you describe would be effective against an extremely contagious respiratory virus like Omicron?

TheKeatingFive · 28/07/2022 19:27

I'll bite - you don't think we can control infectious disease at all without lockdowns?

Bite away. I don't think we've found anything that's effective against omincron, no.

starcatfish · 28/07/2022 19:39

IcedPurple · 28/07/2022 19:10

Which of the measures you describe would be effective against an extremely contagious respiratory virus like Omicron?

I was responding to this general statement about infectious disease:

"I personally find the idea that we are able to control infectious disease outside of extraordinary measures like lockdowns quaint in its 2020 naivety"

not talking about covid specifically. But yes, some of the sorts of measures we've been using for decades would help with covid too. Take infection control in hospitals - masks are part of that, and work against covid as well as other things. Ventilation was a bigger part of infection control in the past than recently - it's not new either - we're just apparently choosing not to use it now.

Just reducing the sheer number of ill people would be quite good for business I think, as well as for general public health:

www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/28/rise-of-omicron-subvariants-sends-uk-staff-absence-soaring

ApplesandBunions · 28/07/2022 19:47

speakingofart · 28/07/2022 18:28

I think someone with sufficient racist/ classist traits to dismiss people being unable to work/ earn/ eat as “unfortunate” would do well not to scold others for ableism.

To say nothing of the fact that you happily ignore anyone who has a disability or health condition that means you can’t wear a mask…

Quite.

IcedPurple · 28/07/2022 20:03

But yes, some of the sorts of measures we've been using for decades would help with covid too. Take infection control in hospitals - masks are part of that, and work against covid as well as other things. Ventilation was a bigger part of infection control in the past than recently - it's not new either - we're just apparently choosing not to use it now.

What's your evidence that any of these things 'work' to any significant degree against Omicron?

Just reducing the sheer number of ill people would be quite good for business I think, as well as for general public health:

Sure, but any benefits of restrictions have to be balanced against the harm they cause in other areas of life.

And that's assuming that anything short of a full lockdown would have any real impact with regard to Omicron, something which is by no means certain.

TheKeatingFive · 28/07/2022 20:06

not talking about covid specifically.

Well I was as the whole thread was about that. I would have thought that was reasonably obvious but apologies if not clear.

TheKeatingFive · 28/07/2022 20:07

But yes, some of the sorts of measures we've been using for decades would help with covid too.

There isn't any actual evidence to support that however. Thinking of omicron specifically.