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Would you consider canceling a holiday/family visit if COVID was surging there?

271 replies

Muffster · 18/07/2022 22:16

The idea of flying to visit family and stay with them for a summer holiday is now giving me concern: 1 in 19 people where my family live have COVID, there is a surge going on and it hasn’t peaked yet.

There are very few people masking, case numbers are not accurately reported, people do not have to stay home when positive/unwell so infections continue and the health care system there appears to be under serious strain.

would you fly over and visit now?

OP posts:
CinnamonSwirlGirl · 19/07/2022 21:02

See I never had any test to get back in the country in April 2021. I paid for a day 2 test (didn’t need a day 10 one) and it never turned up. No consequences because nobody was monitoring things. This was following a long journey back through several countries. In each of these countries we were kept far away from other travellers. Literally escorted by people in full PPE. Until we got to Heathrow where we were forced into a lift with loads of other people (none wearing masks), then pushed into a seriously busy immigration control where people COULD have been socially distanced but we were shouted at when we tried to do so. Huge number of people not wearing masks. Same with people at service stations on the journey back. I know people on here don’t want to hear it, but the reality of “restricted” England in April 2021 was so so so far removed from the restrictions we had come from in the country we’d come from and travelled through.

I agree that there have been isolation requirements in the past year (I just hadn’t really considered that a restriction as our isolation rules have been so much shorter than other countries). I was thinking more about mandatory masking, meaningful limits on numbers at venues, social distancing rules etc.

CinnamonSwirlGirl · 19/07/2022 21:06

The fact that people still think someone being run over by a bus, who’d recently tested positive for Covid, would be included in the stats is just beyond alarming.

Quartz2208 · 19/07/2022 21:11

CinnamonSwirlGirl · 19/07/2022 21:02

See I never had any test to get back in the country in April 2021. I paid for a day 2 test (didn’t need a day 10 one) and it never turned up. No consequences because nobody was monitoring things. This was following a long journey back through several countries. In each of these countries we were kept far away from other travellers. Literally escorted by people in full PPE. Until we got to Heathrow where we were forced into a lift with loads of other people (none wearing masks), then pushed into a seriously busy immigration control where people COULD have been socially distanced but we were shouted at when we tried to do so. Huge number of people not wearing masks. Same with people at service stations on the journey back. I know people on here don’t want to hear it, but the reality of “restricted” England in April 2021 was so so so far removed from the restrictions we had come from in the country we’d come from and travelled through.

I agree that there have been isolation requirements in the past year (I just hadn’t really considered that a restriction as our isolation rules have been so much shorter than other countries). I was thinking more about mandatory masking, meaningful limits on numbers at venues, social distancing rules etc.

But that was April 2021 - December 2021 travel restrictions were very different (I think in part due to the failures of April 2021 with getting Delta in).

There were v v strict in December - you had to take a test to get on the plane and fill in a lot of forms

ApplesandBunions · 19/07/2022 21:15

I know people on here don’t want to hear it, but the reality of “restricted” England in April 2021 was so so so far removed from the restrictions we had come from in the country we’d come from and travelled through.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest there weren't countries in the world with more severe restrictions than the UK in both December and April 2021, but this isn't the same as there being no restrictions at all. You aren't arguing that the existence of places in the world with no restrictions at all during that timeframe is relevant, so the same principle should apply.

If what you actually want to talk about is the UK relative to other countries in the world, by all means say that, rather than pretending that isolation laws and restrictions on whole sectors impacting on thousands of people's jobs didn't happen because you got a PPE escort.

CinnamonSwirlGirl · 19/07/2022 21:23

@Quartz2208 If that was the situation in December I’ll take your word for it. It was shambolic in April.

@ApplesandBunions I’m trying to explain why the whole “we’ve been through so much” argument doesn’t cut it with people who have lived in other countries. Many have been through much worse and their collective response has been to put minor mitigations in place so that life can continue as safely as possible without needing further lockdowns. It’s therefore very hard to understand a “do nothing” approach. If things were as bad as people on this thread feel they were, why not welcome small measures to make sure you never have to go back to the harsher measures?

BeenToldComputerSaysNo · 19/07/2022 21:39

OP, lots here in UK are flabbergasted at how little care is taken over what is turning out for many to be a long term illness. Yes you will be gaslighted. Massively! Hopefully numbers will be lower when you come.

Muffster · 19/07/2022 21:39

This has all been really useful as an exercise
gauging the beliefs of a random cross section of British women roughly my demographic but based in UK, a country that has approached COVID quite differently to where I am. So thanks very much for all the input. Going to respond
in a couple of posts…

In all honestly I look at the countries still living in terror and fear

We aren’t living in terror, we are living with COVID. We are just less accepting of avoidable death and injury than the UK government, it seems. It’s not binary. Taking precautions during surges isn’t terrifying; it’s sensible. To be honest, taking no precautions during surges seems kinda insane.

your own government has been incredibly cruel in allowing you to believe you will be able to avoid it indefinitely

We aren’t avoiding it; we are managing it. We have high community transmission at certain times and less at other times, and we dial protections up and down as needed. If kids are positive, if adults are positive they WFH, for example. PCR tests are free to ascertain when no longer infectious.

your a fool to put your life on hold forever to avoid catching something that is highly unlikely to cause you any serious harm

The only part of my life that’s currently under consideration is traveling to a country when're mitigations of an infectious disease to manage its considerable public health and economic impacts - isn’t happening. We’ll likely come anyway because we miss our family - and use our ongoing strategies of masks and avoiding crowds & badly ventilated spaces, none of which cause us any drama.

We did a very tough graduated lockdown here backin 2020 for several months - actually totally eradicated the virus community transmission for almost a year - that wasn’t sustainable obviously- but it allowed us to get 90% of the population fully vaccinated. What we have here now is nothing like lockdown. Precautions and protections are not the same as restrictions and preventions. It’s not a big deal. It’s good to enjoy life. We do.

It’s no longer a pandemic either - it’s now endemic

This is not true - but I sympathize because the gaslighting in the UK is pretty bad.

it’s truly disgusting that they are still masking children in your country

It’s terrifying to read people elsewhere are still so deranged about this, have they not realised how much they are damaging their children

It’s fine actually, and we have air cleaners too in many classrooms. The kids are pretty healthy and cheerful with plenty of outside time. They only mask in inside lessons and on the bus. We’ve had some school outbreaks, a few kids have had to go to hospital, one young child needed a medical airlift for urgent treatment. School has broken up now. Meanwhile I see one in 5 UK kids are off sick, seems less than great.

you just sound just a little bit deranged compared to all of us living freely

Weird how some of the responses here have been surprisingly vitriolic. I know COVID can be an upsetting thing to think about but this is the COVID forum. And COVID isn’t over, not in the UK, where I live or globally. Wave after wave keeps coming. Denial isn’t working.

We are living freely here. Popping on a mask, doing a quick test, checking the figures before making plans are all easy enough.
Festivals happen, restaurants are open, tourists come and go.

It would seem you've little understanding of life in a large country

Lol you’re not talking to Robinson Crusoe in a hammock. I’m British, lived in London for 20+ years, caught the tube during and after the 7/7 bombings, etc etc. And where I live is a major finance hub and international tourist destination with far more daily international visitors than many UK towns.

Maybe most of us have had Covid and know many many people who have so we can see more clearly the risks. And I know people who have been hospitalised, impacted long term and died

Same, both here and abroad. However, here people do seem to consider the impact of their personal choices on their community more, perhaps. And far fewer people have died compared to population size. And our healthcare system is not in serious trouble, though it has felt some strain during the last wave, when we were testing A LOT.

I didn’t originally intend to discuss and contrast where I’m now with where I’m from in such detail when I first posted - but it ended up that way and it’s been helpful as I said to understand how people are thinking in the UK. My family accept that we will likely, regrettably get it here and that is sad to think about after avoiding it all this time - but one-way protections only go so far and we need to see our family. We will be enjoying the outdoors as much as we can with our family and trying to avoid people who think it’s still 2019.

OP posts:
Festoonlights · 19/07/2022 21:40

We have been living totally normally for ages now. I find these threads totally out of touch and out of date. Like a time machine.

Quartz2208 · 19/07/2022 21:45

@CinnamonSwirlGirl no you dont need to take my word for it. It was the restrictions in place.

We had restrictions/mitigations under Plan B for 6 weeks between December - January - that is also something that is fact.

Places not following restrictions is different.

And where at the moment in comparable countries (EU/US) has restrictions.

Festoonlights · 19/07/2022 21:47

The vaccines don’t work - so waiting for vaccines is a waste of time

Masks don’t work - they never have. Restrictions don’t work they never have

Everyone here is relaxed, not because of central messaging. We have no messaging for months! It’s our own repeated experience of covid that has given us confidence. I have had many worse flus!

My best advice; get some help with your anxiety - everyone all of over Europe, Asia and across the globe are living entirely normally and have been for ages. Free yourself for your children’s sake.

Festoonlights · 19/07/2022 21:48

I hope you catch covid and then you will understand it is not the bogey man you imagine. It’s liberating

Hdhabvdhhebsb · 19/07/2022 21:49

@CinnamonSwirlGirl from ONS

When we say that a death 'involved' COVID-19, we mean that COVID-19 was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, possibly along with other health conditions, not necessarily as the underlying cause of death. When we say that a death was 'due to' COVID-19, we mean that COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death, because it was either the only health condition mentioned on the death certificate, or it was the one that started the train of events leading to death.

Now Google deaths in UK for covid and the statistics recorded are either those testing positive within a timeframe or those where COVID is mentioned on the death certificate

SeaGlassShining · 19/07/2022 21:54

I’m on holiday and tested positive for covid 3 days in. I’ve had a fever on and off, blocked nose. I feel well enough to go out with my family, but I’m not. I’m isolating. I’m on holiday at Center Parcs and don’t want to infect my family and other lovely people on holiday. I’ve been out for walks following my family, but haven’t been inside anywhere.

I’m sad to be missing my holiday, but had 3 nice days before getting covid. It was always a risk, it was just bad luck.

MajorCarolDanvers · 19/07/2022 21:54

Festoonlights · 19/07/2022 21:40

We have been living totally normally for ages now. I find these threads totally out of touch and out of date. Like a time machine.

Agree but these threads allow them to connect together to wallow in the drama.

Meanwhile everyone else is getting on with life.

Muffster · 19/07/2022 21:57

This 👇
Many have been through much worse and their collective response has been to put minor mitigations in place so that life can continue as safely as possible without needing further lockdowns. It’s therefore very hard to understand a “do nothing” approach. If things were as bad as people on this thread feel they were, why not welcome small measures to make sure you never have to go back to the harsher measures?

thanks @CinnamonSwirlGirl and others who have been very thoughtful, supportive and understanding - it’s particularly appreciated. I’m glad not everyone is wedded to the ‘taking precautions = living in fear/lockdown etc etc” mentality - these are tough times for millions of people all over the world and it’s good to know people are still taking risks seriously.

happy anniversary of “England Freedom Day” (TM Boris Johnson)

worth reading this today

www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o1793

and

www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o1779

OP posts:
MajorCarolDanvers · 19/07/2022 21:58

The vaccines don’t work - so waiting for vaccines is a waste of time

They do work. They reduce the likelihood of if death or serious illness significantly.

What they don't do for many people is prevent you from catching it entirely.

Planetearthisscrewed · 19/07/2022 22:02

OP you haven't half spent a huge amount of time trying to convince us all that (insert country) is such a fantastic place with regards to covid blah blah, none of us really give a shiny shite tbh. You carry on telling yourself that having kids in masks at school etc is perfectly ok and we'll just carry on with our lives ta very much.

StinkyWizzleteets · 19/07/2022 22:02

Festoonlights · 19/07/2022 21:48

I hope you catch covid and then you will understand it is not the bogey man you imagine. It’s liberating

What a ridiculous and inconsiderate message. People are still dying of covid. People are being floored by long covid. Families of 200,000 people in the UK are still grieving that bogeyman. You are a fool.

Abracadabra12345 · 19/07/2022 22:09

MiddleParking · 19/07/2022 15:07

I’m sure your families will miss the laugh-a-minute vibe you’d clearly be bringing!

Lol

(my thought exactly!)

Muffster · 19/07/2022 22:11

Wow at some of you.
anyway, here’s the British Medical Journal editorial, written by the editors-in-Chief of the BMJ, yesterday. Maybe have a read. I’m going to post the whole damn thing

The NHS is not living with covid, it’s dying from it

The government must be honest about the threat the pandemic still poses

Today may be the most difficult day the NHS has ever experienced. The headlines will focus on the pressures created by the heatwave and that most visible sign of healthcare failure—ambulances queuing outside hospitals.1 But, as readers of The BMJ and HSJ know all too well, this brutal situation is the culmination of many factors, which include but are not limited to prolonged periods of underfunding in the past decade,2 lack of an adequate workforce plan,34 and a cowardly and shortsighted failure to undertake social care reform.5

There is one more problem. Most people (including many in the NHS) are so tired of it that they are wilfully pushing it to the back of their minds, but now is the time to face the fact that the nation’s attempt to “live with covid” is the straw that is breaking the NHS’s back. In 2020 and 2021 the NHS coped with pandemic peaks by stopping or slowing much of its routine work. 2022 was meant to be the year of full speed recovery, when we would build back better and fairer, when record waiting lists in elective care, cancer diagnosis and treatment, and mental health would begin to reduce, and the workload on primary care would begin to ease.

One of the assumptions underpinning this hope was that covid-19 would be nothing more than an irritant for most of the year, with perhaps a winter wave in December. It is now July, and not counting the first omicron surge that peaked in January, the UK and the NHS have experienced two further covid waves,6 with gaps of just under three months between peaks (coronavirus.data.gov.uk/). The current wave of hospital admissions78 driven by the BA.4 and BA.5 variants is likely to peak in the next few days, but other variants will be ready for global distribution soon.9

Weekly hospital admissions to English hospitals, for those who test positive for covid-19, have averaged just over 9000 in the first six and half months of the year. In 2021 the number was just under 6000, with most admissions concentrated in the first two months of the year. The average in 2020 was just under 7000.10

The omicron variant is less severe, and just under 40% of hospital patients are being treated “primarily” for the disease.10 But a covid-19 diagnosis is a complicating factor for many conditions, worsening outcomes and lengthening recovery times. The need to keep people with covid-19, uninfected people, and contacts apart means an increase in effort. Higher rates of covid-19 in hospitals and the community also result in more staff sickness, further hollowing out an already overstretched11 and exhausted workforce.12

What the hospital admissions figures hide is a rising tide of people with long covid, now at two million13 and likely to be a major burden on the health service14 and the nation’s productivity, for a generation. And there are many other much less recognised but still deeply disturbing effects of the continuing pandemic, including endangering the NHS’s supply of blood.15

Government complacency
How is the government responding to this crisis? Largely by pretending it is not happening or implying it is all under control. In the House of Lords last week16 government health spokesperson Lord Kammal repeated the spurious line: “We managed to break the link between infections and hospitalisations and hospitalisations and death.”

But the link between infections and hospital admissions has clearly not been broken, even if you just consider those being treated “primarily” for the disease. As for deaths, the latest ONS figures17 indicate just under 24 000 fatalities “involving covid” in the first six months of 2022. Yes, that figure is substantially smaller than the 66 000 recorded in the first half of 2021, but it is more than the 21 000 people who died in the last six months of that year. Excess deaths from all causes are also still running above five year averages before the pandemic.

The constant pressure created by repeated covid waves is already the main reason that the NHS is nowhere near reaching the activity levels needed to begin to recover performance. By now the NHS had hoped to be operating better than before the pandemic; instead elective activity is around 10% below 2019.18

The Conservative Party leadership contest—which will deliver the UK’s next prime minister—is shedding little light on the crisis in the NHS and the government’s failing covid policy. The candidates seem more keen to talk about bringing in the army to shake up the NHS19 or criticise “unsustainable”20 spending on healthcare than tackle the immediate and pressing needs of the service. As the NHS is in crisis, health is barely mentioned in leadership debates.

What is especially concerning—and makes the decline of the NHS a more realistic concern than it has been for decades—is the lack of great political, public, or media outcry about the covid-driven collapse in services.

Reintroducing pandemic measures
At no other time in the past 50 years have so many parts of the NHS been so close to ceasing to function effectively. The heart of the problem is the failure to recognise that the pandemic is far from over and that a return to some of the measures taken in the past two years is needed.

Existing public health advice to wear masks in crowded places, ensure good ventilation, and test regularly need to be communicated much more powerfully and widely. This should include a return to mask wearing in healthcare settings and on public transport, as well as re-introduction of free tests for the public.21 Vaccination is the fourth pillar of action. Large sections of the population,22 particularly ethnic minorities and younger age groups, are still not fully vaccinated.

Other measures might include working from home when possible and restrictions on some types and sizes of gathering. The government must also work out how it will support the sections of the population and the economy that will be affected by those measures. The blueprint for managing the pandemic was described in the “vaccine plus strategy” proposed by Greenhalgh and others in The BMJ in January 2022.23

Above all, the government must stop gaslighting the public and be honest about the threat the pandemic still poses to them and the NHS. Being honest with the public will have two positive results, it will encourage the public to modify behaviour and, we hope, provoke urgent reflection about how the NHS is in such a mess so soon after the nation was applauding it on their doorsteps.
www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o1779

OP posts:
Muffster · 19/07/2022 22:18

I hope those who responded who are currently having symptoms or still recovering feel better soon and thanks for sharing your experiences

OP posts:
CinnamonSwirlGirl · 19/07/2022 22:19

Thanks for commenting @StinkyWizzleteets . That was a deeply unpleasant, unnecessary comment 😞. Never mind the health consequences, I can’t afford to get Covid financially (I don’t get sick pay as I’m a contractor and have 3 kids in nursery…which already costs more than I earn. But that’s a different discussion).

No problem @Muffster . Some of us ‘get it’. It didn’t have to be this way and I will never forgive the U.K. government for the way it’s handled things. Also the media for the way they have reported things. If the messaging and leadership had been different, people’s behaviour would have been different.

I do find it funny how those of us who have embraced change and have adapted are labelled as “living in fear”. Those of us who have gone against the grain and continued masking, despite abuse online and in real life are labelled as “sheep”. It’s incredibly ironic.

Best of luck for your trip here, if you do decide to come. Hopefully we will hit the peak soon and the risk will be a little bit lower when you come 😊.

Muffster · 19/07/2022 22:28

Justcannot · 19/07/2022 18:20

I live in Singapore and flew to the UK at Easter for similar reasons to you, and with similar restrictions still in place. I was positive three says later, so most likely infected on the plane or as soon as I landed. I was iller than I've ever been for five days, still ill, like with a heavy cold, for a further 10, and am still coughing today. No underlying conditions, mid 30s. I'm still glad I went and got to see family after so long without doing so, but it cost me a lot of time off work waiting to be able to fly, and therefore money, extra transport and accommodation costs, and testing costs. KLM let me change my flight for free as many times as i needed thank goodness, but most airlines aren't doing that now. So ignoring all the qualms about masks and attitudes with in the UK (which I more or less agree with you on), then you'll have to decide if seeing family is worth the potential cost of it all going wrong. Make sure you have good insurance which covers health implications and financial implications of a covid infection to any of you during your stay, and try to plan a trip which minimises crowds and events but maximises family time outside.

Thank you and I’m sorry to hear you’re still coughing. What you describe is what we are preparing for, illness, expense, etc - it’s pointless not to prepare for what could well happen; I’m glad KLM were helpful at least. I don’t hold out much hope for BA. I hope you are 💯 better soon and don’t catch it again

OP posts:
ApplesandBunions · 19/07/2022 22:33

CinnamonSwirlGirl · 19/07/2022 21:23

@Quartz2208 If that was the situation in December I’ll take your word for it. It was shambolic in April.

@ApplesandBunions I’m trying to explain why the whole “we’ve been through so much” argument doesn’t cut it with people who have lived in other countries. Many have been through much worse and their collective response has been to put minor mitigations in place so that life can continue as safely as possible without needing further lockdowns. It’s therefore very hard to understand a “do nothing” approach. If things were as bad as people on this thread feel they were, why not welcome small measures to make sure you never have to go back to the harsher measures?

Because invariably when people argue for these 'small measures' they're including at least some that failed to prevent an uncontrolled Omicron wave here, and usually elsewhere too, so we've no reason to believe evidence free assertions about how helpful they are. Also, people in other countries aren't a monolithic bloc and the idea that one person could possibly speak for all of them is absurd.

For OP and anyone interested, there's a thread in AIBU already for that poorly evidenced BMJ article.

Muffster · 19/07/2022 23:25

Thanks @ApplesandBunions will take a look after dinner.

I see mask mandates are coming back in parts of the US eg: www.newsweek.com/california-mask-mandate-returns-schools-says-wear-masks-stay-home-1725931

www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2022/07/09/nyc-recommends-masking-indoors-again--with-covid-cases-rising

New Zealand surging too, putting additional protection in place
www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/health/new-zealand-to-add-further-covid-restrictions-as-cases-soar/news-story/535d9a26e3f0df64804c389ee0f6b813

OP posts: