U-turn on mandatory Covid vaccinations for NHS and social care workers

[WineGetsMeThroughIt]

Apparently this will be announced tomorrow. Thank god there's some sense coming back into this world

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/30/front-line-health-staff-no-longer-need-covid-vaccines/

@zen1

I hope all those experienced and valuable carers who lost their jobs a couple of months ago due to the compulsory vaccination policy can get their jobs back now.

Most of the ones I knew professionally who left it was the final straw for them. I had worked with people who wanted to have the vaccines who left anyway as they were upset with the mandate and it was the final push.

They have got better paid jobs with shorter hours and are treated far better by their employers than they ever were in care settings.

One colleague I worked closely with -you could not have asked for a more caring, competent person to care for your family member with advanced dementia. She’s now happier working at Aldi.

Such a loss to people who need good care, but good for her I guess.

@WineGetsMeThroughIt but nhs have compulsory vaccines like hep b already so its not totally new is it

@WineGetsMeThroughIt i have just had covid , not one positive LFT any day and no symptoms so relying in them totally is also not great
I had my positive confirmed by a pcr

MichelleScarn I'm a carer. Is that okay for you? You haven't asked anyone else on the thread whether they're connected with the HCP sector. And it may have escaped your notice but decisions on our working lives are made all the time.

To all those mentioning the care sector - very good point. Terrible that mandates went ahead for them. An already exploited, and grossly underpaid workforce
Needless to say, I was/am very against mandatory vaccines for them too. I wonder if that'll be reversed, and they could return to their jobs? Though I wouldn't blame them if they've moved on, and are not looking back, after the way they've been treated...

As happy as I am about this, I believe it's more the immunisisng effect of the milder new variant than 'people coming to their senses'. It was expected that the vieus would become less of a threat over time by its own evolution and that's what's happened and made this possible. It's a shame that the health service has taken another kicking with a lot of staff now leaving or ready to leave.

It wasn’t just for the care sector it was anyone working in a care home. Which includes a large amount of nhs staff. Plenty of people opposed it, did all of those who say they did actually bother to fill in the consultation? Or do anything else to raise awareness? Saying now it’s all about social class is rubbish. It’s primarily about the effect of the vaccine on the omicron variant. Most of the nhs staff who are unvaccinated are not HCP. The vast majority of NHS staff have voluntarily had the vaccine whilst a significant amount of care staff had not. The situation is different.

@Alltheprettyseahorses

MichelleScarn I'm a carer. Is that okay for you? You haven't asked anyone else on the thread whether they're connected with the HCP sector. And it may have escaped your notice but decisions on our working lives are made all the time.

Well I did ask if you were in this line of work and you've said (rather defensively don't know why!) that you are.... didn't realise we had to pose questions to everyone on a thread rather than just whom were responding to! . You're stating l find it extremely hard to believe that vaccine refusal is a problem in the sector anyway, given the extremely high vaccination rate and the fact that HCPs will be more likely to take it. is that not the whole purpose of this thread and subject? Lots are refusing?

@caringcarer

I am sorry if medical and care staff don't get vaccinated. I would not want to be treated by an anti vaxer.

That's fine. You can always choose to go private!

@zen1

I hope all those experienced and valuable carers who lost their jobs a couple of months ago due to the compulsory vaccination policy can get their jobs back now.

I have a horrible feeling most of them won't want to.

Great news!

@Wowzel

Really disappointed if this is true

It feels hollow but I'm relieved. The health and care system will take a long time to get over

• the understaffing caused by people who have already left and been made to leave

• the rock bottom morale that having to fight for their jobs has caused and to their friends and colleagues who've had to witness this

• the erosion of trust between staff and managers, staff and govt

• the division that such a policy caused

@BungleandGeorge

It wasn’t just for the care sector it was anyone working in a care home. Which includes a large amount of nhs staff. Plenty of people opposed it, did all of those who say they did actually bother to fill in the consultation? Or do anything else to raise awareness? Saying now it’s all about social class is rubbish. It’s primarily about the effect of the vaccine on the omicron variant. Most of the nhs staff who are unvaccinated are not HCP. The vast majority of NHS staff have voluntarily had the vaccine whilst a significant amount of care staff had not. The situation is different.

Of course we all did the consultation! Why on earth would you think otherwise? Probably because of the bias towards care workers! You assume we didn’t bother opposing.

FYI working in care home doesn’t define your social class.

The point here is that society on a large scale assumes carers are uneducated and to stupid to comprehend the importance of vaccination AND more importantly society really doesn’t care much about the people in care homes. Old relatives and disabled people are a bit of a pain in the arse and it’s more convenient to stick them in a home and forget about them, no one really cares if they are understaffed and not receiving the quality of care they deserve.

The people I work with weren’t concerned about having the vaccine, of course we wanted to protect our clients. But we didn’t want to be coerced into receiving a very new (at the time) drug that we didn’t know the longer term effects of.

We also worried about the precedent it set for society as a whole. What if people had to be vaccinated to use public transport, or access education or healthcare? What if other drugs were made compulsory? It was a concern and we raised our voices, but no one listened because no one cared.

But most people don’t access social care, everyone uses the NHS and as soon as that’s at risk of critical staffing levels suddenly people give a shit.

@sashagabadon

I also think patients should be able to refuse to be treated by someone unvaccinated too. That’s their right. Although it does raise confidentiality and logistical issues so I think that is unworkable / unfeasible in practice. I think most patients would prefer an unvaccinated midwife for example than no midwife at all.

Some sectors would have been hit harder than others by the sackings. Midwifery was one of those.

I learned about informed consent from midwives when I was having my babies. I experienced those that understood it and those that just paid lip service.
I had midwives that acted as buffers when doctors gave orders without even meeting me and I will forever be grateful that they protected me from unnecessary intervention.
I don't care a hot about whether a health worker is vaccinated or not. I do care that they understand informed consent and that they have the strength to uphold it even when pressure is being passed down from above to patients.

Just one example - The gears grind so slowly with policy change, even when there are errors to it and it took 11 years of campaigning for one midwife to get the Nice guidelines changed to allow babies a measly extra 3 minutes of their own blood before cutting the cord.

We also worried about the precedent it set for society as a whole. What if people had to be vaccinated to use public transport, or access education or healthcare? What if other drugs were made compulsory? It was a concern and we raised our voices, but no one listened because no one cared.

This is where it was heading at one point, I think the u-turn on the vaccine mandate for NHS is a turning point tbh. We will not stand by while they try to stealth in a totalitarian state.

I don’t have time to link now.

But can I also suggest that people have a look at the human rights act which they are looking to amend in march.

The wording on the gov.u.k. site is quite ominous with wording along the lines of individual rights being taken away for the greater good (not those
words, but along those lines).

I’m out the door now, but it’s on the gov site.

@Moaningturtle because the amount of people saying they opposed it and nobody listened doesn’t seem to tally with the number of responses to the consultation.
It wasn’t me who made the reference to social class and care home staffing. I said the two weren’t linked. Now you’re saying they aren’t linked, or they aren’t? The reason one got through the House of Lords and the other didn’t is because of the effect of omicron on the vaccine. Not some enormous conspiracy. And social care was targeted because of the low voluntary vaccine uptake. NHS staff have the highest uptake but many social care staff who had to leave due to the policy just went into nhs employment instead, hence the reason for the expansion

“The government is committed to updating the Human Rights Act 1998. This consultation seeks views on the government’s proposals to revise the Human Rights Act and replace it with a Bill of Rights, in order to restore a proper balance between the rights of individuals, personal responsibility and the wider public interest.”

That’s the wording.

[quote BungleandGeorge]@Moaningturtle because the amount of people saying they opposed it and nobody listened doesn’t seem to tally with the number of responses to the consultation.
It wasn’t me who made the reference to social class and care home staffing. I said the two weren’t linked. Now you’re saying they aren’t linked, or they aren’t? The reason one got through the House of Lords and the other didn’t is because of the effect of omicron on the vaccine. Not some enormous conspiracy. And social care was targeted because of the low voluntary vaccine uptake. NHS staff have the highest uptake but many social care staff who had to leave due to the policy just went into nhs employment instead, hence the reason for the expansion[/quote]
Uptake was never low.

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/adult-social-care-in-england-monthly-statistics-october-2021/adult-social-care-monthly-statistics-england-october-2021

By September (2 months prior to it being compulsory) around 90% of staff had had it. It’s not outlandish to think that the other 10% possibly had good reason not to have it, not everyone can have it for medical reasons and as the vast majority of people in care are female I’d suspect some where pregnant or planning to be and many expectant mothers hesitated.

I apologise if I’m wrong but I think you were the first poster to mention “social class” in regards to care workers on this thread, if someone had already mentioned it I didn’t spot it. There’s no discussion to have there, plenty of “middle class” people work in care homes. Beyond perhaps the assumption we are all working class and therefore don’t have educated opinions.

The reporting on todays u-turn is heavily implying that the reason NHS won’t need to be vaccinated is to protect staffing numbers, nothing to do with omicron? There was no concern over care home staffing, the assumption being that anyone can do the job and we are easily replaced. Well they were wrong on that!!!!

Finally

I think most patients would prefer an unvaccinated midwife for example than no midwife at all

I agree with this and I think people are being disingenuous to suggest otherwise. We aren't in a position to pick and choose.

I do think omincron changed the conversation. A milder variant that evaded vaccines to a greater degree makes a vaccine mandate ridiculous. The message this sends to the care sector is a shame however.

@BungleandGeorge

It wasn’t just for the care sector it was anyone working in a care home. Which includes a large amount of nhs staff. Plenty of people opposed it, did all of those who say they did actually bother to fill in the consultation? Or do anything else to raise awareness? Saying now it’s all about social class is rubbish. It’s primarily about the effect of the vaccine on the omicron variant. Most of the nhs staff who are unvaccinated are not HCP. The vast majority of NHS staff have voluntarily had the vaccine whilst a significant amount of care staff had not. The situation is different.

At the time the mandate was being discussed and consultation took place, I hadn't even been offered my second vaccination (as a care worker) I filled in the consultation and pointed this out, and spoke about it, I was one of those 'unvaccinated' numbers that was used to push this mandate through, as was everyone where I worked and indeed a lot of people in the care sector in the area I worked in. I wasn't refusing, but I couldn't have something that wasn't offered yet, but my unvaccinated status (along with many others) was being used to show low uptake in care workers to gain public support. That's misleading. A teacher on my Facebook was busy complaining that they were desperate for the vaccine and 'horrified' that at that time only 72% of care workers were fully vaccinated - when I pointed out that I was one of those 28% not fully vaccinated and that wasn't because I was refusing, but because I hadn't been offered it yet, I was told that wasn't the point 🤨

Secondly, where the care sector is concerned, there has never been a requirement to be vaccinated against anything, it wasn't even a conversation to be had or a question asked. For most providers if you were upright and breathing, and had a *clean DBS, then your name went on the rota. Many people don't know this, they assume that we're HCPs with that training and knowledge - we're not, we don't have any where near the level of training a HCP has, we deliver social care not medical care. Some assume we're under the umbrella of the NHS - we're not, we are employed by private companies who receive fees from local authorities and private fee payers, and who have profit at the heart of their ethos.
(*And the rules around that have changed so that some cautions and offences are protected and therefore don't show up, and even with a criminal record, it's down to the discretion of the company (or in reality how desperate they are) if they employ or not with the exception of a few offences and convictions.)
It was a new concept for care workers and instead of investing time to support people, answer their questions and give data and reassurance, it was get it or get out.
A % did, and because of the already existing issues around how staff are treated in the care sector, the effects of covid and the problems that causes around recruitment and retention, the loss of those staff were enough to cause serious problems where staffing is concerned.
I doubt many will come back, those I know are earning more money, with better hours and conditions in hospitality and retail (which are not exactly famous for good working conditions and fair pay).
To address this we have had a half arsed ad campaign and the 'recruitment and retention' scheme - paid to providers to do with as they see fit. Some I know have had a bonus, anywhere between £20 and £100, some are still waiting. For 2 years of working under these conditions, working ridiculous shifts to cover hours that need to be, working for free, experienced carers training new staff, catching covid at work and having to fight to get paid for your legally enforced absence (even though the government provided the money!) Lack of resources and then the blame when it all goes wrong.

But as a pp pointed out, no one really wants to listen, the government have done a very good job of diverting attention away from the very real issues within social care that have been brought to a head by the loss of unvaccinated staff, by pointing the finger at the unvaccinated staff, and people are going along with it because they are blinded by the fact that 'unskilled' workers are the ones raising the issues and therefore not worth listening to.

@Moaningturtle no it was another poster who said it was all due to social class
The last date for care homes staff to get their first vaccine was 16th september so those figures are from after that, and after many staff had left if they didn’t want it
Whatever reasons they are now coming out with the vaccine mandate for nhs staff was still going through the legal process until the House of Lords refused to sanction it based on insufficient evidence that this is a proportionate measure given the different behaviour of omicron. They can’t get this through parliament, I expect they’ll try and put some positive spin on it to save face

The point here is that society on a large scale assumes carers are uneducated and to stupid to comprehend the importance of vaccination AND more importantly society really doesn’t care much about the people in care homes. Old relatives and disabled people are a bit of a pain in the arse and it’s more convenient to stick them in a home and forget about them, no one really cares if they are understaffed and not receiving the quality of care they deserve.

While I strongly agree with most of what you have said, I disagree with your last sentence about people not caring about quality of care. My experience (before covid and the mandate as well as now) is that care providers fail to provide enough resources (including staff) to provide the quality of care expected, but the users of the service and their families and representatives see it as the carers can't be bothered, aren't doing it right, aren't adequate enough.
Of course it is in providers interests to agree with that, because to listen to the concerns of families and service users and then their staff as to why this is happening, puts them in the position of having to do something, which will inevitably affect profit as they'll need better training, more staff and equipment.
The mandate was a good one for them to hide behind, all those selfish people that we don't want in the job anyway have gone and left a gap we can't fill, it's terrible, it's awful - and yet no one is asking the question of why the gap can't be filled, and the providers roles in that.

And I didn’t think vaccine mandate was a positive thing for either sector and responded to the consultation. As did many people not involved in social care. It’s a slippery slope