U-turn on mandatory Covid vaccinations for NHS and social care workers

[WineGetsMeThroughIt]

Apparently this will be announced tomorrow. Thank god there's some sense coming back into this world

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/30/front-line-health-staff-no-longer-need-covid-vaccines/

Great news re the U turn..
@TotalRhubarb
Vitamin D which I've been taking as we had it in the house. Maybe this has been linked already but research just published shows that it reduces the rate of auto immune disease which is always useful news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/01/vitamin-d-reduced-rate-of-autoimmune-diseases-by-22/

[quote leafyygreens]@TotalRhubarb

So you’re saying we need to hold off recommending it until the trial data comes in, whenever that might be.Obviously that’s what we usually do outside of emergency situations like a pandemic.

When there are very few risks to at least informing the public that it could be useful, it’s a pity to wait, I feel, though I understand what you’re saying. In the context of other treatments with potential grave side effects, I would agree with you. This is so low risk and cheap, though.

There is no evidence it is effective. We have null RCTs. We have null findings from other types of study design such as genetic instrumental variable analysis.

It is completely unethical to recommend a treatment that has no evidence base, or to invest money in encouraging it's use.

We already have recommendations regarding vitamin D in general, and people can buy it over the counter or get a prescription from their GP.[/quote]
There IS evidence. It was linked to above.

It may not currently meet the very very high standards we set before agreeing to offer a treatment. But it’s not correct to say there is none.

Fair enough to not provide it on the NHS yet. But if you’re somebody who likes to take responsibility for their own health and not necessarily wait half a decade and can weigh up your own risks/benefits, it would be useful to know about what’s currently known, don’t you think?

It was important to me this was reassessed with omicron as it was so long since it came into consideration

I’m very glad it was as the situation has changed

Thanks Bluebells, that’s interesting. I’m not surprised as it fits with earlier findings, but very interested to see the dose that gave the protective effect was significantly higher than the current recommended daily dose. Again, not surprised and this fits with other findings.

No doubt we’ll wait years now for the official recommendation to take it. Once we have enough evidence!

There IS evidence. It was linked to above.

There is no robust evidence vitamin D is effective in preventing or treating COVID - I've read back a couple of pages and not sure what you're referring to? @TotalRhubarb

Fair enough to not provide it on the NHS yet. But if you’re somebody who likes to take responsibility for their own health and not necessarily wait half a decade and can weigh up your own risks/benefits, it would be useful to know about what’s currently known, don’t you think?

Again, for maybe the third time, all the currently evidence is available for people to see. I have linked the cochrane review several times.

We already have evidence from RCTs and other low risk of bias study designs that is not effective. I'm not sure why you're referring to waiting half a decade when you can just take it yourself if you wanted to.

But as I keep saying, given there is no robust evidence for efficacy, government campaigns or whatever people are crying out for cannot be justified.

[quote Bluebellsunderthetrees]Great news re the U turn..
@TotalRhubarb
Vitamin D which I've been taking as we had it in the house. Maybe this has been linked already but research just published shows that it reduces the rate of auto immune disease which is always useful news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2022/01/vitamin-d-reduced-rate-of-autoimmune-diseases-by-22/[/quote]
How is a study showing that vitamin D can help prevent AI disease relevant to coronavirus?

It's sort of like saying there's evidence beta blockers are safe and effective in preventing Alzheimer's, therefore they must be good for coronavirus too.

I was led to understand (from several experts) that SARS-COV-2 infection reduces the patient's level of vitamin D.

In which case, it is SARS-COV-2 that is causing or contributing to the lower vitamin D.

They're not sure yet but it was certainly something they were looking into.

@Tealightsandd

I was led to understand (from several experts) that SARS-COV-2 infection reduces the patient's level of vitamin D.

In which case, it is SARS-COV-2 that is causing or contributing to the lower vitamin D.

They're not sure yet but it was certainly something they were looking into.

What I mean by this is, dosing up won't help (if these experts turn out to be right) - because the SARS-COV-2 will keep on reducing the levels.

@leafyygreens where did I say it related to CV? I just thought TotalRhubarb would be interested in it.

However people with some of the AI illness are at increased risk of death/serious illness from Covid therefore if Vit D helps reduce the risk of AI in the elderly, presumably that would also have a knock on effect to their Covid risk. Every little helps :-)

[quote Bluebellsunderthetrees]@leafyygreens where did I say it related to CV? I just thought TotalRhubarb would be interested in it.

However people with some of the AI illness are at increased risk of death/serious illness from Covid therefore if Vit D helps reduce the risk of AI in the elderly, presumably that would also have a knock on effect to their Covid risk. Every little helps :-)[/quote]
But this is irrelevant to the argument that vitamin D would be effective in preventing or treating COVID..?

I don't disagree that we should be trying to reduce rates of AI disease (or any disease), but I don't see how it's relevant to specifically this point.

As I said I thought TotalRhubarb would be interested . It's trending in New Scientist after all. It is interesting to quote the scientists and wonder what else it could do with the immune system and therefore Covid. Don't you think?

“We know vitamin D does all kinds of wonderful things for the immune system in animal studies,” says Karen Costenbader at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. “But we have never proven before that giving vitamin D can prevent autoimmune disease.”
"It is unclear how vitamin D prevents autoimmune disease, but we know it is processed in the body to produce an active form that can alter the behaviour of immune cells."

@leafyygreens

And if we want to talk about evidence base, we could look at the evidence base for travel restrictions, or vaccination mandates, or trying to pressure hesitant people into vaccinations through their jobs. All of which either have no real evidence base or worse, are known to create problems.

I don't see how this is relevant to the incorrect claims that vitamin is effective?

The solution to bad science is not more bad science.

There simply isn't the evidence to justify diverting funding into encouarging people to take vitamin D to prevent or treat COVID. We have the recommendations regarding supplementation already, people can buy OTC. I just don't understand this obsession with the idea that information is somehow being buried because it won't profit "big pharma".

Well to see how it's relevant you'd have to read back into thread and remember how it came up, noting that the government has tended to favour more interventionist and authoritarian measures, contrasting non evidence based things like mandates and travel restrictions to other things like encouraging activity to combat obesity.

The question is, why the former and not the latter?

@Bluebellsunderthetrees

As I said I thought TotalRhubarb would be interested . It's trending in New Scientist after all. It is interesting to quote the scientists and wonder what else it could do with the immune system and therefore Covid. Don't you think?

“We know vitamin D does all kinds of wonderful things for the immune system in animal studies,” says Karen Costenbader at the Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston. “But we have never proven before that giving vitamin D can prevent autoimmune disease.”
"It is unclear how vitamin D prevents autoimmune disease, but we know it is processed in the body to produce an active form that can alter the behaviour of immune cells."

But there are loads of fantastic new discoveries regarding various compounds and supplements that have shown evidence in all sorts of diseases? They often "trend in the New Scientist" or indeed get loads of attention at conferences and by the media. Scientific research is amazing.

But that doesn't mean I look at selenium, for example, automatically think it would be great to treat or prevent coronavirus.

Good finally a bit of common bloody sense. Removing bodily autonomy is scary frankly, and I say that as someone who is triple jabbed. It was my right to CHOOSE. I understand peoples valid concerns over a vaccine which is very new - I don't share them but I understand it. The argument is totally different for established vaccines IME.

Actually leafy there was a study that looked at selenium for covid and it was favourable. Not sure if I could find it but will have a look.

Of course all these micronutrients work synergistically so it doesn’t seem sensible to supplement each separately on the back of a study.

However vit D in terms of respiratory infections has been known about for years. Everyone should TEST and supplement accordingly but it works with other minerals too.

@Thievesoil

Actually leafy there was a study that looked at selenium for covid and it was favourable. Not sure if I could find it but will have a look.

Of course all these micronutrients work synergistically so it doesn’t seem sensible to supplement each separately on the back of a study.

However vit D in terms of respiratory infections has been known about for years. Everyone should TEST and supplement accordingly but it works with other minerals too.

I thought someone might say that as soon as I referenced a vitamin!

I can assure you there is no good quality evidence that selenium is effective in treating or preventing COVID.

Vitamin supplementation & what it is protective against has long been an issue in epidemiology, due to the sheer volume of observational studies. The issue here is that people who choose to take vitamins are going to be significantly differently to those who do not.

We need alternate study designs - RCTs but also other methods that are better for inferring causality. Most of these more robust study designs have demonstrated that protective effects of vitamins are actually due to confounding and other biases, with some exceptions.

This has just been magnified hugely by coronavirus - by both groups who genuinely don't understand the issues of a poorly designed study & by those with more suspect reasons (i.e., touting vit C/D/E/X as a COVID cure that means no one needs to be vaccinated, ever). See FLCCC for example.

This is a nice article in the conversation that explains some of the other issues with the vitamin supplemtation literature:

theconversation.com/health-check-four-myths-about-vitamin-supplements-22887

I don’t disagree. The studies are very poor although that applies to all studies

However I’m baffled that any mention of nutrition as been completely ignored. We have missed a trick. Or perhaps not. Nutrients are cheap

@Thievesoil

I don’t disagree. The studies are very poor although that applies to all studies

However I’m baffled that any mention of nutrition as been completely ignored. We have missed a trick. Or perhaps not. Nutrients are cheap

At the risk of repeating what I've said, the "big pharma won't profit" argument doesn't make any sense, given how many many cheap as chips drugs have been trialled for treatment.

You say "nutrients are cheap", but what do you actually mean and what are you suggesting in terms of policy? Are you referring to vitamin D? As I have said, people can view the evidence for themselves and choose to take it (and it's already recommended anyway), but there isn't evidence to justify it being prescribed or public health campaigns.

The studies are very poor although that applies to all studies
Not sure what you mean here - there are types of study design that are higher quality and lower risk of bias and those are what have been used when it comes to the current COVID treatments

I mean exactly that - most clinical trials are poor.

There are very few large trials published in nutrients because there isn’t the funding. But in terms of covid we have seen various trials showing positive effects on substances such as lactoferrin to zinc. A Japanese study has just shown a positive effect from I!!

I follow the money every time I review a study. Pfizer won’t even release the full safety data from theirs. I find that astonishing. People lambast the fact the vitamin D studies aren’t optimal whilst we jab the planet without seeing full data from Pfizer

@Thievesoil

I mean exactly that - most clinical trials are poor.

There are very few large trials published in nutrients because there isn’t the funding. But in terms of covid we have seen various trials showing positive effects on substances such as lactoferrin to zinc. A Japanese study has just shown a positive effect from I!!

I follow the money every time I review a study. Pfizer won’t even release the full safety data from theirs. I find that astonishing. People lambast the fact the vitamin D studies aren’t optimal whilst we jab the planet without seeing full data from Pfizer

I mean exactly that - most clinical trials are poor. What specifically do you mean? Methods wise? We are talking about COVID so what issues do you have regarding the trials that demonstrated efficacy for various drugs (i.e dexamethasone) or the vaccines? Why do you think they are "poor"?

Regarding supplements, as I said it isn't RCT evidence or nothing.

There are alternative study designs - like genetic IV analysis - which are now mainstream in epidemiology, considered far better at unpicking whether something is causal or not, and do not take anywhere near the amount of time or resources that a trial would do.

I explained that many of these studies have been used to look at the causal effect of vitamins on health outcomes, generally finding no effect when compared to observational studies although there have been some (very exciting) exceptions.

This is true for COVID, and there are a number of them looking at vitamin D, finding null results.

But in terms of covid we have seen various trials showing positive effects on substances such as lactoferrin to zinc. A Japanese study has just shown a positive effect from I!!
Would be interested in seeing this study - not entirely sure what supplement you're refferring to.

I follow the money every time I review a study. @Thievesoil

So surely you can see how you argument does not hold up, given that at the start of the pandemic a shortlist of trial drugs was drawn up, many off patent and all extremely cheap, and then systematically trialled? Those that showed efficacy are now used to treat COVID (e.g., dexa), those that didn't are not (e.g., HCQ, ivermectin)

I will say this again - please look at the proposed reform to the human rights act.

This is just a reprieve for now if that goes through and it has implications for everyone.

I don’t care if you are the sort of person who thinks everyone should have a covid vaccine “for others”.

What if one day, you or your children are forced to do something you don’t want to for the good of society?

Please look into it.

Thanks Slough and I will. Although I’m not impressed at how a truck was driven through the ECHR already. Is it all meaningless?