Refusing services to unvaccinated. What are your thoughts?

[TheChip]

I'm just curious to hear of people's thoughts on this.
I have currently been refused a service due to being unvaccinated, in the UK. Its not a service that would require close proximity like a hairdresser, but in the same space for a period of time.

My thoughts on it are while I understand and respect people's choices and comfort levels, I do find it hard to grasp when the virus is both passed between those vaccinated or unvaccinated. Even if you throw in the comments about how vaccination reduces transmission, it is still transmissible.

I would have been more than willing to LFT before every contact, and wear a mask. But this wasn't an option. Which I guess is the part I find most difficult to understand. That they would be comfortable and willing to be around those vaccinated, possibly even without testing. Which I'd expect testing to be expected for both vaccinated and unvaccinated for someone who is clearly so uncomfortable.

So yeah, what are your thoughts

@SantaClawsServiette

I don't think that's at all clear, that covid is a much greater risk to the immune compromised than other types of infections and illnesses. And for those who are seriously compromised, so many things are risks, working in a role that exposed them to all kinds of things is pretty much throwing caution to the wind.

Really? So what other infection do you think is currently as dangerous to immunosuppressed people as covid as well as being extremely infectious and prevalent?

I didnt say I did have the right. I said that I have seen people on here happy for those who are unvaccinated to lose rights.

As for my dad being immunosuppressed. Yes, he is. A common cold is just as dangerous to him, and so it would be for many others, too. It has landed him in hospital twice now after moving to pneumonia. Pneumonia is dangerous as far as I am concerned, and if its a common cold that has caused it, then that means that the common cold is dangerous to some people.

@TheChip

I didnt say I did have the right. I said that I have seen people on here happy for those who are unvaccinated to lose rights.

As for my dad being immunosuppressed. Yes, he is. A common cold is just as dangerous to him, and so it would be for many others, too. It has landed him in hospital twice now after moving to pneumonia. Pneumonia is dangerous as far as I am concerned, and if its a common cold that has caused it, then that means that the common cold is dangerous to some people.

I haven't said that the common cold isn't dangerous to some people. I have said that it isn't as dangerous as covid.

But it can be.

I didnt say I did have the right. I said that I have seen people on here happy for those who are unvaccinated to lose rights.

You can't lose a right to never had.

You can't lose a right to you never had.

@TheChip

But it can be.

For people who are immunosupressed, covid is much more likely to cause hospitalisation or death than a cold.

🤯

What are the "rights" of unvaccinated people? You have never had the "right" to be a customer of a private business anymore than they have the "right" to your business.

This hits the nail on the head. People have no clue what their 'rights' actually are. Learning to drive is a privilege, not a right. Eating in a restaurant (private establishment) is a privilege, not a right. Fly on a commercial airline, privilege, not a right. The only rights in any of these situations are the rights to not be prohibited from doing these things on the basis of a protected characteristic - which 'choosing not to be vaccinated' isn't.

@goawaystormy

What are the "rights" of unvaccinated people? You have never had the "right" to be a customer of a private business anymore than they have the "right" to your business.

This hits the nail on the head. People have no clue what their 'rights' actually are. Learning to drive is a privilege, not a right. Eating in a restaurant (private establishment) is a privilege, not a right. Fly on a commercial airline, privilege, not a right. The only rights in any of these situations are the rights to not be prohibited from doing these things on the basis of a protected characteristic - which 'choosing not to be vaccinated' isn't.

Nobody has disagreed with that

Yes. The court recently held that the Christian business that refused to make the gay cake could indeed do so. www.theguardian.com/law/2022/jan/06/gay-cake-row-man-loses-seven-year-battle-against-belfast-bakery

Just as I could say no one vaccinated can come into my business although when you get up against some discrimination eg if more BAME people are not vaccinated refusing a service to unvaccinated might amount to race discrimination or if more pregnant women or women hoping to be pregnant are unvaccinated (if that is so) and they are not allowed to do things because of that that might amount to sex discrimination

@Xenia

Yes. The court recently held that the Christian business that refused to make the gay cake could indeed do so. www.theguardian.com/law/2022/jan/06/gay-cake-row-man-loses-seven-year-battle-against-belfast-bakery

Just as I could say no one vaccinated can come into my business although when you get up against some discrimination eg if more BAME people are not vaccinated refusing a service to unvaccinated might amount to race discrimination or if more pregnant women or women hoping to be pregnant are unvaccinated (if that is so) and they are not allowed to do things because of that that might amount to sex discrimination

Only if vaccination wasn't recommended for people who are BAME or pregnant or vaccination wasn't available to them for some reason.

...if its a common cold that has caused it, then that means that the common cold is dangerous to some people.

And presumably those people manage the risk by not going out much? By avoiding people showing symptoms of the common cold? By not working as driving instructors or in any other role where you sit in close quarters with people who might have a cold on the day of their lesson?

Basically, you are trying to say that covid is as dangerous as a cold, and that is simply not true.

The common cold is dangerous to some people.
Covid is dangerous to everyone.
These two sentences do not imply the same level of risk.

@mathanxiety

...if its a common cold that has caused it, then that means that the common cold is dangerous to some people.

And presumably those people manage the risk by not going out much? By avoiding people showing symptoms of the common cold? By not working as driving instructors or in any other role where you sit in close quarters with people who might have a cold on the day of their lesson?

Basically, you are trying to say that covid is as dangerous as a cold, and that is simply not true.

The common cold is dangerous to some people.
Covid is dangerous to everyone.
These two sentences do not imply the same level of risk.

I'm not trying to say that a cold is as dangerous as covid to everyone. But it can be just as dangerous to some people. The part where you have quoted what I said even says "some people"

If the vaccines actually worked this might go another way . As it stands, they are so ineffective it's a moot point.

I'm not trying to say that a cold is as dangerous as covid to everyone. But it can be just as dangerous to some people.

There is absolutely no reason to bring very unusual cases into this discussion then.

It's as relevant as saying, 'Some people are allergic to oranges'.

Or, 'My cat's breath smells of catfood'.

@Belladonna12

If they are in a position where catching covid is that serious for them, then there are other very common respiratory infections, among other things, that will be very concerning.

Other common respiratory conditions are not in the same league as COVID. It can be far more serious for people who are severely immunosuppressed and the vaccines won't necessarily work for them.

If you have immune issues, a job where you are in close quarters to the public all the time is a real risk. One you can decide to take, but a risk all the same. Covid really doesn't change that.

As I said, covid is far more dangerous so it does make a difference.

They need to look at another line of work if they want to avoid getting sick.

Why should they look for a new line of work if it is possible to reduce the risk in the job that they have trained to do? Why should the people they live with change their jobs?

It was in response to this. So not entirely irrelevant.

It was indeed irrelevant, unless you are trying to downplay covid or suggest some equivalence between covid and the common cold.

@mathanxiety

It was indeed irrelevant, unless you are trying to downplay covid or suggest some equivalence between covid and the common cold.

Definitely not. Its pretty obvious covid can be dangerous for everyone. Especially cev. From what I am picking up, it feels like belladonna is downplaying other illnesses for those who are cev!

If a cold can put the cev in hospital, then that is, or can be, just as dangerous to them, as covid.

@Dontforgetyourbrolly

If the vaccines actually worked this might go another way . As it stands, they are so ineffective it's a moot point.

That's just patently untrue and a dangerous myth to spread

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.14.21267615v1

If a cold can put the cev in hospital, then that is, or can be, just as dangerous to them, as covid.

Not really as this is focusing just on worst case scenario and not on likelihood which need to also figure in any assessment of risk.

RSV is more dangerous than covid to kids, as is the flu. Even those not immunosupressed.

And no, covid isn't dangerous to most people.

Belladonna12

It's probably mostly the latter.

Why would it be mostly the latter though (assuming you mean people are only complying because they have to)? In the UK 90% of people have chosen to get vaccinated even though they don't have to so why assume it would be any different in Australia?

@Belladonna12 I’ve been away from Mumsnet for a day or so, so the thread has grown a bit. As the pp who wrote that Australia is complying I agree with what you’ve said here.

If the vaccine rollout was a bit more smooth and vaccinations readily available for everyone then we would have reached 90% of population vaccinated much sooner.

I don’t think that the heavy handed, overly controlling restrictions put in place were necessary or needed. I think Australians needed to have access to vaccinations and our freedom of choice respected and to be treated like autonomous adults who can make the right decisions.

On the other hand I also meant that we are complying to being treated badly by our government and I’m not really sure why we put up with it.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

If a cold can put the cev in hospital, then that is, or can be, just as dangerous to them, as covid.

Not really as this is focusing just on worst case scenario and not on likelihood which need to also figure in any assessment of risk.

Isn't avoiding those who haven't been vaccinated just the same then? Focusing on worst case scenario.

Well if the unvaccinated person catches covid from the vaccinated person it could end quite badly!