Refusing services to unvaccinated. What are your thoughts?

[TheChip]

I'm just curious to hear of people's thoughts on this.
I have currently been refused a service due to being unvaccinated, in the UK. Its not a service that would require close proximity like a hairdresser, but in the same space for a period of time.

My thoughts on it are while I understand and respect people's choices and comfort levels, I do find it hard to grasp when the virus is both passed between those vaccinated or unvaccinated. Even if you throw in the comments about how vaccination reduces transmission, it is still transmissible.

I would have been more than willing to LFT before every contact, and wear a mask. But this wasn't an option. Which I guess is the part I find most difficult to understand. That they would be comfortable and willing to be around those vaccinated, possibly even without testing. Which I'd expect testing to be expected for both vaccinated and unvaccinated for someone who is clearly so uncomfortable.

So yeah, what are your thoughts

Don’t agree with it, but if a private business insists, just vote with your feet.

I’m vaccinated, but would still think badly of a business that discriminated in that fashion.

@TheChip

But the only way for medical exemption is if youre literally dying and receiving end of life care. If you have learning disabilities or autism and a vaccination would cause distress and the other one was allergies to any of the ingredients or previous vaccines.

I have what I believe are genuine concerns with my current health situation and vaccines, but my concerns are irrelevant. Even though I would find it incredibly distressing if it was forced upon me in any way. Which thankfully isn't an issue yet, but to be denied access to services because my concerns aren't seen as good enough is shit.

Just to add that I am not talking about being denied services by this instructor here, more so if it was to happen all round.

It's not going to happen all round though is it? It's only going to ever be small private businesses and they have the right to decide to to their customers are.

@MummyPop00

Don’t agree with it, but if a private business insists, just vote with your feet.

I’m vaccinated, but would still think badly of a business that discriminated in that fashion.

If a business declines your custom you can't really "vote with your feet".

@user1471443411

Unacceptable for all the reasons others have already stated. I know many people who are double (or triple) vaccinated who disagree so strongly with these measures they will boycott businesses. I guess people will vote with their feet and time will tell, but people have long memories.

You are deluded if you think a large proportion of the population will boycott private businesses who don't want unvaccinated customers. Most people realise that they may have good reason e.g they or their family maybe vulnerable to covid and will think it's up to them anyway. Even if they lose one or two customers there will be other people who will be more likely to use the business.

@Belladonna12 I bet that's what they thought in other countries, too. I really hope it doesn't happen here, and so far it looks to be heading in a more positive way. But I'm not confident that it won't happen, yet.

I can vote with my feet because I’m vaccinated.

@MummyPop00

Don’t agree with it, but if a private business insists, just vote with your feet.

I’m vaccinated, but would still think badly of a business that discriminated in that fashion.

You can only vote with your feet if you are vaccinated🙄

I’d be more likely to use that business tbh. I see vaccination against Covid as a public health issue-we are where we are because so many people have been vaccinated. I’d rather believe immunologists and virologists regarding transmission rather than someone on Facebook. There are other businesses who will be happy to deal with unvaccinated people so can’t understand people getting riled up about it.

@IncompleteSenten

Depends on the service.

If it's a business then they can choose who they will and will not serve (except for unlawful reasons eg racism)

If, OTOH, it's a national medical service etc then people who have chosen to not vaccinate should not be prevented from accessing medical care.

The problem with businesses discriminating against the unvaccinated is that a business does not have the legal right, nor the means, to properly assess someone's claim to e.g. be exempt for allergy reasons, and that leaves the business open to legal challenge.

As for the example of the driving instructor......nonsense. I don't see driving instructors wanting to know if you are x days away from a flu, have had a flu vaccination, have had norovirus or other diseases that mean that you may need to take time off work. The reality is this: people get ill. With many things. Not just covid. And people take time off work with illness. Not just covid.

@Subbaxeo

I’d be more likely to use that business tbh. I see vaccination against Covid as a public health issue-we are where we are because so many people have been vaccinated. I’d rather believe immunologists and virologists regarding transmission rather than someone on Facebook. There are other businesses who will be happy to deal with unvaccinated people so can’t understand people getting riled up about it.

I am already using those businesses.

I agree it might depend on the situation - equality issues are always about weighing up the differing requirements - eg someone is CEV and don't want to serve an unvaccinated person who has an allergy and can't be vaccinated But the reasonable adjustment might be to ask someone else to serve that person or do so outside/in a well ventilated area (thinking of hairdressers) or point them towards a salon where you know they will cut that person's hair.

But those instances would be few and far between.

As few and far between as people who can't be vaxxed for medical reasons. The vast majority can be.

The problem with businesses discriminating against the unvaccinated is that a business does not have the legal right, nor the means, to properly assess someone's claim to e.g. be exempt for allergy reasons, and that leaves the business open to legal challenge.

I don't think that is true at all. They aren't open to legal challenges if the person hasn't said that there are medical reasons though.

Large stores may have the resources to have somebody at the door checking for vaccine status. But I think that would put staff in a difficult position when they get a refusal, & the customer becomes irate.

But the shops where this is entirely unworkable are the small independents. Especially those in less densely populated areas. The likelihood in small towns is that you know all your customers by name. If you start challenging or refusing them, they will remember that when all these restrictions end. No small business can afford to alienate customers.

Perhaps the driving instructor is trying to protect you, the unvaccinated person. She's mixing with different people all day long, could pick up covid but be asymptomatic and give it you. And some people would be unreasonable and stupid enough to blame her for it. Personally if I was unvaccinated driving lessons would be a risk too far for me but each to their own.

And like others I'd actively choose a business that required clients to be vaccinated. They're showing consideration for their other clients that can't be vaccinated or for who the vaccines aren't that effective.

Something struck me today, as I follow these threads in my very brief downtime at the moment.

In the justice system as such in a broad sense, especially when capital punishment is on the table, there is a saying about better that 10 guilty people go free than an innocent be wrongly imprisoned or executed.

I see parallels with the attitude to adverse effects and deaths - which I accept are vanishingly rare as far as we know - except it's reversed - collateral damage amongst the adversely affected vaccinated is seen as a necessary evil.

Before the howls about but "Covid" is worse, the difference is that we understand that illness of any stripe is a lottery created by nature, which we fight with advances in medicine and science. Anyone is free, if deemed capable of informed consent, to refuse treatment for their personal reasons.

With the politics, the moral arguments and coercion in this giant worldwide experiment with multiple vaccines and multiple risks, it would be insane to think there wouldn't be people with valid concerns in these unprecedented times. Incompetence and corruption at state level is responsible for much if this, as is the fact that some health related initiatives have gone wrong in the past, and people have been shafted by general systemic failures be ause they don't fit the statistics but there's little room for manouevre and of course more political considerations.

What I'm trying to say, though it feels incoherent because stress at the moment, until you're that one outlier having the shitty outcome, for these reasons, maybe on multiple occasions, you can't understand the fear of new risk factors being introduced and the need to maintain a modicum of control. Hounding and coercing and threatening people, dividing society and pandering to media generated hysteria is making everything a hundred times worse than it needs to be.

But I guess that's the world we live in now.

That's a very long post to say that you are happy for the rest of us to take the risk of "adverse effects" and "shitty outcomes" so things get back to normal.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Something struck me today, as I follow these threads in my very brief downtime at the moment.

In the justice system as such in a broad sense, especially when capital punishment is on the table, there is a saying about better that 10 guilty people go free than an innocent be wrongly imprisoned or executed.

I see parallels with the attitude to adverse effects and deaths - which I accept are vanishingly rare as far as we know - except it's reversed - collateral damage amongst the adversely affected vaccinated is seen as a necessary evil.

Before the howls about but "Covid" is worse, the difference is that we understand that illness of any stripe is a lottery created by nature, which we fight with advances in medicine and science. Anyone is free, if deemed capable of informed consent, to refuse treatment for their personal reasons.

With the politics, the moral arguments and coercion in this giant worldwide experiment with multiple vaccines and multiple risks, it would be insane to think there wouldn't be people with valid concerns in these unprecedented times. Incompetence and corruption at state level is responsible for much if this, as is the fact that some health related initiatives have gone wrong in the past, and people have been shafted by general systemic failures be ause they don't fit the statistics but there's little room for manouevre and of course more political considerations.

What I'm trying to say, though it feels incoherent because stress at the moment, until you're that one outlier having the shitty outcome, for these reasons, maybe on multiple occasions, you can't understand the fear of new risk factors being introduced and the need to maintain a modicum of control. Hounding and coercing and threatening people, dividing society and pandering to media generated hysteria is making everything a hundred times worse than it needs to be.

But I guess that's the world we live in now.

I can’t make head to tail of this

@MistressoftheDarkSide that’s very well put. As someone who has seen at close hand a life changing disability caused by vaccine damage (not covid and not a vaccine that’s currently available in the UK) I am aware that these things happen and that it’s seen as acceptable collateral on a public health level. The fact vaccines do carry a risk however small makes coercion in the form of vaccine passports, mandates or businesses privately discriminating against unvaccinated people absolutely unacceptable and I hope we hold out against them in the UK.

@JanisMoplin @Toanewstart22

I have a thread on this board called "I have a situation "

Which may exp,ain better.

Since I wrote it, things have changed for the worse in inexplicable ways that are baffling the best neurologists in my area, and further afield. And I can't even really discuss it because I can't face being told "it's a coincidence" "Covid might have done it" "you're scaremongering " when the truth is nobody knows anything but the same risk factors exist.

@MrsGaskthrill - thank you for being able to get the gist.

I dont think that is fair. I think many of those who have taken the vaccine have took it because they feel it will benefit them. It has not been for "the greater good". Yes, some will have, but there are plenty, and you see them on these boards all of the time, who have only got it for travel reasons. So it's not even because they think it will benefit their health in some cases!

But all of that is accepted just because they have taken a vaccine. That means they are good and selfless. Where as people with genuine concerns over this vaccine who are hesitant on taking it, are dismissed, accused of getting information on facebook and are somehow selfish. There are valid concerns, whether people want to believe it not.

That was in response to @JanisMoplin the quote didn't work for some reason

@TheChip

I dont think that is fair. I think many of those who have taken the vaccine have took it because they feel it will benefit them. It has not been for "the greater good". Yes, some will have, but there are plenty, and you see them on these boards all of the time, who have only got it for travel reasons. So it's not even because they think it will benefit their health in some cases!

But all of that is accepted just because they have taken a vaccine. That means they are good and selfless. Where as people with genuine concerns over this vaccine who are hesitant on taking it, are dismissed, accused of getting information on facebook and are somehow selfish. There are valid concerns, whether people want to believe it not.

Did you have concerns over any other vaccines you have had, or is it just this one?

It's not about being 'good and selfless' - my reasons for getting the vaccine were because I looked at the data and came to the conclusion that even whilst I have no health conditions and am a healthy weight and am 33, I was better off having the vaccine. I even had AZ just before they changed it for over 40s only because of blood clot risk- didn't bother me one bit. I can't really understand the mindset of having greater concerns over the vaccine than greater concerns over covid tbh. Logically and scientifically it doesn't make sense.

I also got the vaccine as I thought it would give society (including ME!) the chance to get back to normal living. The vaccine does also benefit society by reducing numbers in hospital for covid. Therefore allowing treatment to continue for other health problems too. So win win really- I benefit, lots of other people benefit too.

You may not want to recognise it but choosing to remain unvaccinated doesn't help you and it does potentially add to the burdens on the rest of society. Imagine if everyone felt like you- and allowed illogical concerns to influence whether they had a vaccine or not. Because it is frankly illogical for most adults to refuse the vaccine. Imagine the additional pressure on the NHS and the restrictions that would still be in place if everyone had done this.

I don't think that vaccines should be mandatory but if you choose to not be vaccinated, there may be consequences to that. Lots of companies seem to be changing sick pay for unvaccinated staff now etc.

Like I said before, Rafa Nadal summed it up pretty succinctly. You have the right to choice but then accept the consequences and I don't think the driving instructor is unreasonable.

She's probably overwhelmed with prospective learners right now so don't imagine she was too worried about refusing your custom.

You've got no idea on my circumstances or anything, and yet my concerns are illogical?
I disagree

@TheChip

You've got no idea on my circumstances or anything, and yet my concerns are illogical? I disagree

I think for most people who are refusing to be vaccinated, their 'concerns' are mostly illogical, because of the fact that again for most of them, Covid is likely to have more serious effects than the vaccine.

Isn't most modern medicine based on the principle of as little intervention as possible- precisely because of potential harms of interventions? Just looking at the statistics, unless you are a child, it really is clear that most people are likely to be worse off contracting covid than having the vaccine.

Without solid medical reason, it's illogical to be refusing a vaccine- especially when presumably you drive, cross roads, basically just step outside your house every day. Those things are more likely to kill you than the vaccine.