Refusing services to unvaccinated. What are your thoughts?

[TheChip]

I'm just curious to hear of people's thoughts on this.
I have currently been refused a service due to being unvaccinated, in the UK. Its not a service that would require close proximity like a hairdresser, but in the same space for a period of time.

My thoughts on it are while I understand and respect people's choices and comfort levels, I do find it hard to grasp when the virus is both passed between those vaccinated or unvaccinated. Even if you throw in the comments about how vaccination reduces transmission, it is still transmissible.

I would have been more than willing to LFT before every contact, and wear a mask. But this wasn't an option. Which I guess is the part I find most difficult to understand. That they would be comfortable and willing to be around those vaccinated, possibly even without testing. Which I'd expect testing to be expected for both vaccinated and unvaccinated for someone who is clearly so uncomfortable.

So yeah, what are your thoughts

@TooToxic

Last time I checked, this was a free country & the decision to take the vaccine was a personal one. That this business is engaging in vaccine apartheid is shocking!

You’ve not checked for a while then 🙄

@TooToxic

Last time I checked, this was a free country & the decision to take the vaccine was a personal one. That this business is engaging in vaccine apartheid is shocking!

Last time I checked, businesses aren’t obliged to provide anyone with service if they don’t want to.

Last time I checked, businesses aren’t obliged to provide anyone with service if they don’t want to

Better go and read equality guidance then.

I think for most people who are refusing to be vaccinated, their 'concerns' are mostly illogical, because of the fact that again for most of them, Covid is likely to have more serious effects than the vaccine

They are not illogical. Vaccines obviously work at population level. But some people have bad side effects. We know some people died after having the AZ vaccine, so it is not illogical to be scared and that is why it should never be compulsory in my view.

Of course the ones who go on about 5G and the like are another breed, but as I mentioned above, any "risk" to the driving instructor from an unvaccinated person is the same whether they had a good reason to refuse the vaccine, or didn't.

@JuergenSchwarzwald

I think for most people who are refusing to be vaccinated, their 'concerns' are mostly illogical, because of the fact that again for most of them, Covid is likely to have more serious effects than the vaccine

They are not illogical. Vaccines obviously work at population level. But some people have bad side effects. We know some people died after having the AZ vaccine, so it is not illogical to be scared and that is why it should never be compulsory in my view.

Of course the ones who go on about 5G and the like are another breed, but as I mentioned above, any "risk" to the driving instructor from an unvaccinated person is the same whether they had a good reason to refuse the vaccine, or didn't.

Illogical to me in the sense that what they aiming to prevent is more dangerous to the vast majority of people.

So why choose to leave yourself at greater risk? The ideal would be no covid, and no vaccine necessary, but thinking of it in those terms, the vaccine is the lesser of two evils surely?

Of course the ones who go on about 5G and the like are another breed, but as I mentioned above, any "risk" to the driving instructor from an unvaccinated person is the same whether they had a good reason to refuse the vaccine, or didn't.

Many experts would disagree that the risk is the same though. That is why people who live in the same house as someone who is severely immunosuppressed have been vaccinated before healthy people of the same age, for example.

@JuergenSchwarzwald

Last time I checked, businesses aren’t obliged to provide anyone with service if they don’t want to

Better go and read equality guidance then.

I don't think there is anything in equality guidance that states private businesses have to provide a service for anyone that wants it.

@JuergenSchwarzwald

Last time I checked, businesses aren’t obliged to provide anyone with service if they don’t want to

Better go and read equality guidance then.

I think you’ll find the driving instructor has broken no laws...vaccination status is not a protected personal characteristic In law.....look up the Guardian article about the bakery that refused to make a cake for someone supporting same sex marriage in Ireland....the reasoning the U.K. Supreme Court gave when they ruled in support of the bakery would apply to this case....just tried to link it but can’t....it’s easily found though

Of course the ones who go on about 5G and the like are another breed,

Unfortunately some people are lumping those who have expressed a doubt about the vaccine in with the 5G nutjobs when it really isn't the same.

Yup. It is quite frustrating.

It seems to me here there are basically conflicting rights. One is the right of a business to set the conditions of work, and the other is the right of people to medical privacy.

In general I think the latter wins out. Businesses don't get to ask you if you have vaccinations, if you have HIV, or whatever. There is no way to draw a line around that which is logical and reasonable.

I can see an argument that a person with vulnerable health might ask, in a careful way - look, I am vulnerable to respiratory infection, so..." They would be sharing their medical info and asking if you will please share yours, in a polite way that is socially non-divisive and caring.

But then, if someone is really that vulnerable they maybe should not be doing that job, covid isn't their only worry.

@SantaClawsServiette

It seems to me here there are basically conflicting rights. One is the right of a business to set the conditions of work, and the other is the right of people to medical privacy.

In general I think the latter wins out. Businesses don't get to ask you if you have vaccinations, if you have HIV, or whatever. There is no way to draw a line around that which is logical and reasonable.

I can see an argument that a person with vulnerable health might ask, in a careful way - look, I am vulnerable to respiratory infection, so..." They would be sharing their medical info and asking if you will please share yours, in a polite way that is socially non-divisive and caring.

But then, if someone is really that vulnerable they maybe should not be doing that job, covid isn't their only worry.

I'm not sure that is true. People don't have to give it but there's nothing to stop a business deciding that they therefore don't want to take the custom. Not wanting to give a medical history is not protected characteristic.

But then, if someone is really that vulnerable they maybe should not be doing that job, covid isn't their only worry.

I'm sure covid isn't their only worry but perhaps they don't want to add to their worries by not having any income.

Hilarious that some people who don't want to be vaccinated think their rights are so important but think that people who are vulnerable or who live with people who are vulnerable have no right try and reduce their risk as much as possible. So self important and selfish.

@Belladonna12

But then, if someone is really that vulnerable they maybe should not be doing that job, covid isn't their only worry.

I'm sure covid isn't their only worry but perhaps they don't want to add to their worries by not having any income.

Hilarious that some people who don't want to be vaccinated think their rights are so important but think that people who are vulnerable or who live with people who are vulnerable have no right try and reduce their risk as much as possible. So self important and selfish.

I havent seen anybody on here trying or wanting to deny anyone their rights to things.

I think its clear to see that this isn't an easy answer, and a one where people can look at it and say "oh yeah, I can see why that is"
There are a lot of little things that make you question further, and without asking, people would just be left to come up with their own conclusions, like the instructor just being awkward over vaccination status. That is how it appears on the surface. On the reverse, it could be said that I am unvaccinated just because I am awkward. Both have reasonable explanations when you dig further. In this case, it seems that my isolation period, as an unvaccinated person, would be disruptive to the instructors time.

@Belladonna12

But then, if someone is really that vulnerable they maybe should not be doing that job, covid isn't their only worry.

I'm sure covid isn't their only worry but perhaps they don't want to add to their worries by not having any income.

Hilarious that some people who don't want to be vaccinated think their rights are so important but think that people who are vulnerable or who live with people who are vulnerable have no right try and reduce their risk as much as possible. So self important and selfish.

If they are in a position where catching covid is that serious for them, then there are other very common respiratory infections, among other things, that will be very concerning.

If you have immune issues, a job where you are in close quarters to the public all the time is a real risk. One you can decide to take, but a risk all the same. Covid really doesn't change that.

They need to look at another line of work if they want to avoid getting sick.

I'm not sure that is true. People don't have to give it but there's nothing to stop a business deciding that they therefore don't want to take the custom. Not wanting to give a medical history is not protected characteristic.

Sure, they can ask you your STD history too, if you have cold sores before you go into their cafe, whatever.

Or - maybe that's totally inappropriate. People have a right to medical privacy.

Just to change what I said before. About not seeing anyone trying to deny the rights of others. I have seen it on this thread.

Some people are more than happy for the rights of those who are unvaccinated to be denied.

If they are in a position where catching covid is that serious for them, then there are other very common respiratory infections, among other things, that will be very concerning.

Other common respiratory conditions are not in the same league as COVID. It can be far more serious for people who are severely immunosuppressed and the vaccines won't necessarily work for them.

If you have immune issues, a job where you are in close quarters to the public all the time is a real risk. One you can decide to take, but a risk all the same. Covid really doesn't change that.

As I said, covid is far more dangerous so it does make a difference.

They need to look at another line of work if they want to avoid getting sick.

Why should they look for a new line of work if it is possible to reduce the risk in the job that they have trained to do? Why should the people they live with change their jobs?

@Belladonna12

If they are in a position where catching covid is that serious for them, then there are other very common respiratory infections, among other things, that will be very concerning.

Other common respiratory conditions are not in the same league as COVID. It can be far more serious for people who are severely immunosuppressed and the vaccines won't necessarily work for them.

If you have immune issues, a job where you are in close quarters to the public all the time is a real risk. One you can decide to take, but a risk all the same. Covid really doesn't change that.

As I said, covid is far more dangerous so it does make a difference.

They need to look at another line of work if they want to avoid getting sick.

Why should they look for a new line of work if it is possible to reduce the risk in the job that they have trained to do? Why should the people they live with change their jobs?

A common cold can land my dad in hospital. He is CEV. The flu would be deadly to him, just as much as covid. So it really doesn't make a difference as the flu, and even the common cold can be just as dangerous to those who are CEV. We have been taking precautions around his health for many years before covid came about.

@SantaClawsServiette

I'm not sure that is true. People don't have to give it but there's nothing to stop a business deciding that they therefore don't want to take the custom. Not wanting to give a medical history is not protected characteristic.

Sure, they can ask you your STD history too, if you have cold sores before you go into their cafe, whatever.

Or - maybe that's totally inappropriate. People have a right to medical privacy.

It would only be inappropriate because whether or not you have got an STD or cold sore does not effect them and there is no reason for them to know. Businesses can and do ask for medical information if it is relevant to safety though e.g. gyms ask health questions as do dentists. Obviously you don't have to answer the questions but they also don't have to take your business.

A common cold can land my dad in hospital. He is CEV. The flu would be deadly to him, just as much as covid. So it really doesn't make a difference as the flu, and even the common cold can be just as dangerous to those who are CEV.
We have been taking precautions around his health for many years before covid came about.

Is your dad immunosuppressed? A common cold is not just as dangerous to most people who are immunosuppressed as covid.

If they don’t feel comfortable with someone who is unvaccinated they shouldn’t be forced into providing a private service. Your choice is not more important than theirs.

Wonder what they will do in about 9 weeks time - if SI is finished for anyone with actual covid?
Sick vaccinated person will be fine in his car?
But big NO to person who declined their covid jag?

I don't think that's at all clear, that covid is a much greater risk to the immune compromised than other types of infections and illnesses. And for those who are seriously compromised, so many things are risks, working in a role that exposed them to all kinds of things is pretty much throwing caution to the wind.

@TheChip

Just to change what I said before. About not seeing anyone trying to deny the rights of others. I have seen it on this thread.

Some people are more than happy for the rights of those who are unvaccinated to be denied.

What are the "rights" of unvaccinated people? You have never had the "right" to be a customer of a private business anymore than they have the "right" to your business.