Sajid javid

[Worried456776]

news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-sajid-javid-directly-challenged-on-mandatory-coronavirus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224

Well done to this docter for standing up for himself.

@BeMoreGoldfish

No it doesn’t harm “many people”. The hep vaccine would have been “new” at some point. All vaccines are new at some point . That is no argument at all. People dying before the vaccine was introduced was a tragedy - those who could have been saved had they had their vaccine is utterly devastating .

The Yellow Card data of adverse events is far higher than all other vaccines put together. "As of 22 December 2021, for the UK, 150,517 Yellow Cards have been reported for the COVID-19 Pfizer/BioNTech Vaccine, 240,803 have been reported for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, 28,434 for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 1,401 have been reported where the brand of the vaccine was not specified." www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

You may not think that's many people. I do. It's an emergency use authorised vaccine still in the trial period. That is indeed different from Hep B which was fully authorised before becoming mandatory for healthcare workers. I do agree with you it's tragic for people to die of covid, mainly because there has been two years of it now and all we have on offer is a very leaky vaccine four times a year and very scant attention paid to treatments for outpatients. Triple vaxxed are still dying of this. Young people, double vaxxed are dying of it.

I know of quite a lot of doctors and consultants who weren't taking the vaccine or were very relict ant to.

Yes. In support of the Doctor here also.

I feel it was interesting how Sajid already had targeted who he was going to speak to, however, they all kept silent and were scared to speak. It was amusing and also embarrassing.

Good on him.

Sajid looked like an utter idiot with no idea of what he was saying. This guy is the Health Secretary?

Can't say I'm surprised.
He's got absolutely no backbone when 'challenged'.

Only time he has one is when he is cornering people to get the jab on tv for brownie points.

@Quirkyme

Yes. In support of the Doctor here also.

I feel it was interesting how Sajid already had targeted who he was going to speak to, however, they all kept silent and were scared to speak. It was amusing and also embarrassing.

Good on him.

Sajid looked like an utter idiot with no idea of what he was saying. This guy is the Health Secretary?

Can't say I'm surprised.
He's got absolutely no backbone when 'challenged'.

Only time he has one is when he is cornering people to get the jab on tv for brownie points.

I would suggest the nurses didn't want to do much more than nod their agreement to Javid's question because disagreeing with your consultant's opinion in front of them (on something I'm sure he's been very vocal about) is a big no no

Blue "He was basically just repeating propaganda that he'd clearly read in the paper. "

It seems strange to me that people get shouty about this stuff without thinking, like they're in a permanent state of....wanting to be in a set position on the scale?

I think we learn things all the time and I'm not much inclined to be shouty. I do wish there was more focus on cures for Covid, though I'm aware we have new medications but Johnson seems to be much quieter about that.

@lorrainecleaver

You may not think that's many people. I do. It's an emergency use authorised vaccine still in the trial period. That is indeed different from Hep B which was fully authorised before becoming mandatory for healthcare workers. I do agree with you it's tragic for people to die of covid, mainly because there has been two years of it now and all we have on offer is a very leaky vaccine four times a year and very scant attention paid to treatments for outpatients. Triple vaxxed are still dying of this. Young people, double vaxxed are dying of it.

Lorraine, have you ever read the tiny sheets that accompany tablet packets that detail the side-effects that may occur? If these were reported - on a national scale, and via media and social media - you would be horrified, no doubt. You would never take paracetamol again. You would never drink water again, actually. That stuff is lethal and should have a warning sheet.

BTW, look up the actual statistics for vaccine deaths vs COVID deaths. Then think about what the COVID deaths might be if we didn't have vaccines.

Leafy "I would suggest the nurses didn't want to do much more than nod their agreement to Javid's question because disagreeing with your consultant's opinion in front of them (on something I'm sure he's been very vocal about) is a big no no"

They barely nodded. I was thinking more that it was awful to put them on the spot in front of cameras, and on an issue that may have caused rows, and some of them might have chosen not to be vaccinated.....

I bet the last thing a busy hospital needs is a politician turning up at the mo!

@EmmaH2022

Blue "He was basically just repeating propaganda that he'd clearly read in the paper. "

It seems strange to me that people get shouty about this stuff without thinking, like they're in a permanent state of....wanting to be in a set position on the scale?

I think we learn things all the time and I'm not much inclined to be shouty. I do wish there was more focus on cures for Covid, though I'm aware we have new medications but Johnson seems to be much quieter about that.

acute treatments?

there's ongoing research with RCTs continuing - several cheap existing drugs have been found effective and of course there's the shiny novel treatments that have been developed too.

Lots and lots of work in this area

[quote Dishhh]@lorrainecleaver

You may not think that's many people. I do. It's an emergency use authorised vaccine still in the trial period. That is indeed different from Hep B which was fully authorised before becoming mandatory for healthcare workers. I do agree with you it's tragic for people to die of covid, mainly because there has been two years of it now and all we have on offer is a very leaky vaccine four times a year and very scant attention paid to treatments for outpatients. Triple vaxxed are still dying of this. Young people, double vaxxed are dying of it.

Lorraine, have you ever read the tiny sheets that accompany tablet packets that detail the side-effects that may occur? If these were reported - on a national scale, and via media and social media - you would be horrified, no doubt. You would never take paracetamol again. You would never drink water again, actually. That stuff is lethal and should have a warning sheet.

BTW, look up the actual statistics for vaccine deaths vs COVID deaths. Then think about what the COVID deaths might be if we didn't have vaccines.[/quote]
Of course I've read them. I was on twenty prescription drugs at one point when my thyroid medication wasn't working, including Tramadol and Zopiclone. Things I would never touch with a barge pole now. I supplement with lots of vitamins including NAC, B12 and magnesium which helped me with covid and didn't take so much as one paracetamol. The hideousness of some drugs does not negate the awfulness of vaccine side effects. The tragic death of Lisa Shaw was attributed directly to the vaccine so it's not a smart position to downplay the fact that they do have risks associated with some people and the problem is identifying which people prior to jabbing.

I think the vaccines have been marvellous for preventing death in some very vulnerable people. That doesn't mean every single human being should take them.

For years we have been accepting treatment from drs & other health care professionals who are not vaccinated for seasonal flu. Flu kills people every year.

HCPs smoke & drink too much, drive motorbikes etc & have risky behaviours just like anyone else. That is their choice.

It is not my business to know if the dr treating me has been vaccinated or not, that is their choice. I may not a favour that choice, but I support their right to choose.

When I am being prepared for an operation & the last person I see before I go under is a fully clinically masked anaesthetist working in a sterile environment, my priority is being in the hands of a highly trained competent dr, & my health/safety is their absolute priority. Their personal choice about vaccination, & any other of their choices I may question or dislike is not my business or priority.

I assume that competent physicians monitor their own health as usual & routinely test to see if they have infection, work in cleaner if not sterile environments & wash their hands between patients. The transmission risk is relatively low. I’d rather work with that than loose competent drs & HCPs from the NHS.

Mandatory employee vaccination is not a hill the NHS can afford to die on.

@blue12345

Would love if any fellow medics on this thread would care to explain why they think he feels this way? Surely he understands the science and obviously has experience with Covid if he has worked on a Covid ward for the past 2 years.

I admire him working with covid patients, one can only hope he's not so arrogant about listening to new & improved treatment plans.

As SJ said, they listen to vaccine specialists and more qualified people to make these decisions.

This Dr isn't even keeping up with what the specialists are saying, let alone knowing better than them.

Just another bloke with a god complex.

@the80sweregreat

I'm not an anti vaxxer , but people are entitled to a different point of view and making their own decisions too. All the better it's from a Doctor. Why shouldn't people question things?

Nothing wrong with questioning things everything wrong with in not doing your research & being I'll informed & spouting it off crap as fact.

@Flyonawalk

Some comments on this thread are disturbing. The doctor who spoke (in a measured way and from a position of scientific knowledge) is being discredited because posters don’t like what he said. Why jump to unpleasant conclusions about his character?

The embarrassed silence from some of the other staff when Javid spoke to them could suggest that they are also against mandatory vaccination. I know plenty of medics who believe ‘the science’ does not support blanket vaccination.

A position of scientific knowledge.🙄🙄.

People with scientific knowledge far greater than his, have said getting the vaccines after you've had covid boosts your immunity.

@Whyisitsodifficult

He talks a lot of sense, nobody should be coerced into vaccinations. What’s wrong with testing immunity? It’s downright shameful if this consultants years of experience will be lost because he’s decided not to have a vaccine! And shame on anyone who believes vaccines should be mandatory!

Why should I feel shame that our medical staff should protect patients, not put them at additional risk? Its a shame to lose staff, I'm not convinced it's a huge shame to lose people who don't trust the MRHA & who don't keep up with peer reviewed journals, then claim to know better than the people at the top of their field.

@Walking4You

Vaccines don't eliminate all risk but they do reduce it.

Yes expect that this covid vaccine isn’t a proper vaccine is it?

It doesn’t and never will make covid disappeared unlike, polio, measles etc….

It doesn’t last very long. 10 weeks they are telling us and then the protection drops considerably. Unlike the flu, we would need some booster at least every 3 months.

As we have learnt, variant can sweep over the world very quickly. And the vaccine might well be totally inappropriate.
Eg for omicron we don’t know yet if the two doses of the vaccine actually have any impact of the transmission of the disease. We do know that the vaccine efficacy with AZ is about … ZERO (so I imagine that it has no effect too on avoiding the spread)

This is not a vaccine. It’s a prophylactic drug that protects people for about 2~3 months.
I am not aware of any prophylactic drug that doctors and HCP have to take before treating people.

You really shouldn't spout utter tripe.

@Walking4You

Ok another way to say it is that it’s a vaccine but an extremely crap vaccine.

It doesn’t stop the illness unlike the polio vaccine.
It doesn’t last more than 2~3 months unlike … well all the other vaccines we have.

The best it’s doing (and I appreciate it’s already a lot) is to protect you for 2~3 months.
That’s not what I expect from a proper vaccine and I doubt it would have been approved if we weren’t in the middle of the pandemic.

The issue i have is to talk about a vaccine, treat it like a vaccine when it doesn’t give the protection a vaccine normally gives.
A drug/medication/whatever name you want to use that is only protecting you for 3 months is a prophylactic drug. So let’s treat it like this and then review how we want to handle it

(For full disclosure to avoid the ‘oh an anti vaxxer’ I’ve had the two jabs and the booster…)

Not to point out the bloody obvious, but it wouldn't have needed to have been approved if we weren't in this pandemic.

Scientists worked fucking hard to get vaccines as fast as possible, people made funding available to enable that to happen more quickly. The vaccines have done an amazing job!!

The efficacy against getting covid wears off quicker than we'd like, but the protection against serious illness & death lasts much much longer.

Boosters top your protection up, in time one of the ones they're working on WILL have longer protection against getting it and boosting the protection against serious illness & death.

You also need to do some reading around previous vaccines.

@OutIsay

I think he raises an interesting point. Has he got higher antibodies than someone who is triple-vacc'd? I would doubt it, but I would love to know.

It's irrelevant really. If he had the booster he'd be more protected & less likely to infect anyone else.

They can't go around infecting vaccinated & boosted people with covid to boost their immunity. To 'even it up'.

@Butterfly44

As Javid responded "we listen to the experts who are specialists" The doc is not an immunologist. He's an anaesthetist. He knows his own field. Yes, entitled to his view but most of what he was saying is not factually correct. The science - and there are plenty of published papers now on this - certainly doesn't show we need vaccinating every month.

Exactly.

I love it how we all say an anesthesiologist knows nothing about medicine/ science etc. and Sajid David actually said 'well lets leave it to the experts'.

Can I just remind everyone Sajid is literally Secretary of State for Health and Social Care - with not a single days experience in either of those fields.

Lets leave it to the experts alright.

@Iggly

There are people out there who have got covid and been fine. People out there who’ve got covid and not even noticed. So why do they need a vaccine?

Because prior to getting it, each & everytine, we have no idea who will be 'fine' and who won't.

What surprises me in this conversation lately is the position that “the majority of scientific opinion reccomends vaccination” and we must defer to that.

I suspect that a majority do support it, but there will also be millions of qualified people who are much more skeptical and nuanced, but their argument is simply ignored, shut down or deplatformed because it’s not acceptable to the politicians and Twitter mobs.

The scientists held in such high regard have also been wrong. Despite the rewriting of history, the implication was that getting XX% of people jabbed would bring this to an end. Instead we get a vaccine which only reduces transmission by a few percent for a few months.

It’s also very context specific. You would probably struggle to find a person in the UK who thought that 75 year olds shouldn’t take the jab, but the further down the age range you go it gets much more questionable.

My point is, deferring to “majority expert opinion” is not a good starting point.