Do you still agree with mandatory vaccines for NHS?

[woollymammoths]

Not doing this to goad and completely respectful of people’s choices. But genuinely interested in opinions and any research that people are aware of.

At this point in time I am struggling to think of family and friends that do not have covid right now. Some are triple vaccinated, some are unvaccinated. There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

Example:
My DP is triple jabbed - he has had covid twice (once after 2 jabs, the second time after booster). More ill the second time, but still mild.

His (NHS) department is currently shut down with the amount of (triple jabbed) staff off sick with covid.

I caught covid from him.

I am unvaccinated - have had covid twice. Been unpleasant but not hospitalised. The second time milder than the first.

I am on mat leave but due to return to my NHS role.

Why am I still being forced to be vaccinated?

please do not say ‘just find another job’. That is not the point of my thread

Evidence increasingly shows that the benefit of the vaccine is only to the individual receiving it

It is a benefit to both the individual and to society, because if vaxed people pick up an infection they are much more likely to clear it without becoming ill enough to need hospital (and put crudely, have the taxpayers money spent on them). In times of mass infection, it is clearly a benefit to have to pay for less people being ill, as money can be spent elsewhere.

So even if the vaccination had no effect at all on spread (and it has been proven to limit spread) it would still be of great benefit and not using it would be very expensive and silly. The fact that most people have had it is the reason why we aren't all sitting in clapping our pots and pans and going for our hour a day exercise this time.

merrymouse

You sound as though you are annoyed as you believe that people are only benefiting from no lockdown as the majority are vaccinated when in reality most of those choosing not to are the ones at minuscule risk.

There is no lockdown as the data does not support it due to the fact that the absolute vast majority of those at risk of serious illness or death are vaccinated and a proportion of those in that category who are not will not be able to for medical reasons.

The vaccine has done its work and maybe as people age or become vulnerable later on they will change their stance accordingly.

My daughter is a charge nurse at an American hospital. The specific hospital she works in is 600 beds with 30 ICU beds. Nearly 20% of their nursing staff was fired effective January 1 due to vaccine non compliance.

Yesterday, their hospital system implemented the CDC new Crisis strategy for health care workers. For those unfamiliar with it, when staffing levels fall to crisis level, the CDC guidelines indicate that vaccinated and boosted workers can continue to work while testing covid positive so long as they are asymptomatic, or mildly symptomatic.

So the hospital fired a bunch of nurses for not complying with the government issued mandate to be vaccinated against covid, creating crisis level staffing, then following official government guidelines, expect covid positive nurses to keep working.

Oh, and her hospital is at full capacity right now. All 600 beds full. 70 of those beds are occupied with covid patients. Of the 30 full icu beds, 5 are covid patients.

Their Emergency Room has up to 18 hour wait times with over half of those waiting are there because, going into year three of this, they still think they need to go to hospital if they test positive for covid, even if they are asymptomatic or mild symptoms.

So in a strict sense, her hospital is being over run with covid patients, and their ICU is full.

that is awful and makes zero sense. For everyone calling for mandatory vaccines would you prefer to be treated by an unvaccinated HCP without Covid or a vaccinated one with Covid. It just doesn’t make any sense at all!

@Turquoisesea

that is awful and makes zero sense. For everyone calling for mandatory vaccines would you prefer to be treated by an unvaccinated HCP without Covid or a vaccinated one with Covid. It just doesn’t make any sense at all!

The trouble is you can't tell who has it. So that choice would really be between an unvaccinated HCP who might have it and be more likely to pass it on if they do, or a vaccinated HCP with it who is less likely than a vaccinated person to pass it on.

No

You sound as though you are annoyed as you believe that people are only benefiting from no lockdown as the majority are vaccinated when in reality most of those choosing not to are the ones at minuscule risk.

Most Covid patients currently in intensive care have not been vaccinated and a disproportionate amount of people in hospital (around a third) have not been vaccinated.

It’s clear that unvaccinated people are not all low risk, and even if it’s possible to profile them by age, that won’t take into account additional risk factors.

merrymouse

80% of those in hospital vaccinated and unvaccinated are also obese.

I real terms how many in actual numbers are the unvaccinated in hospitals against the total number unvaccinated in the country? It’s still a small amount.

If people insist on this level of protection from HCP it’s time to pay for it.

@userperuser

merrymouse

80% of those in hospital vaccinated and unvaccinated are also obese.

I real terms how many in actual numbers are the unvaccinated in hospitals against the total number unvaccinated in the country? It’s still a small amount.

If people insist on this level of protection from HCP it’s time to pay for it.

That seems very high, though of course obesity has been one of the factors for worst case outcomes for Covid since the beginning. Do you have a link to the 80% figures? I can't find it in the lifestyle effects on the ONS pages or other sources.

I cannot fathom why someone in a healthcare role cannot work out for themselves what a huge benefit the vaccination program has been.

Surely you must of noticed the utter misery of last January.. and can compare the state of your healthcare workplace this year .. (despite much more virulent spread)

That alone gives you sufficient information for your brain to be engaged. Even if you are not able to understand all the data available on the ONS website.

And yes. Absolutely. If you refuse the vaccine you should not be permitted to work in an environment with vulnerable people. Who could die from you passing on the virus. . You have a much greater chance of that happening than if you are vaccinated.

Re the total of vaccinated v unvaccinated cf vaccinated/unvaccinated in hospital.

That's where base rate fallacy comes in.

You might, for example (pretend figures) have 5 people vaccinated in hospital and 5 unvaccinated. That doesn't mean that Covid affects vaccinated/unvaccinated to the same % though. (Though it's an argument used daily on here and elsewhere by people who either don't understand numbers themselves, or would like others not to)

Because, as you say, you need to look at the % of vaccinated/unvaccinated in the WHOLE country and then compare that number with hospitalisation numbers.

If we take the (very) lowest conservative estimates of approx 5 million eligible to be vaccinated but not vaccinated (other data sources range from 12 million to as high as 19 million and 23 million but these are thought to be flawed due to the data harvesting used) giving 5 hospitalisations (our pretend people above) and the rest of the eligible AND vaccinated population (45-50 million approx, possibly higher) also giving us 5 hospitalisations, then it's clear that being vaccinated absolutely, categorically, is way more likely to keep you out of hospital.

PAFMO

www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Attachments/Download/876791a8-e359-ec11-9139-00505601089b

PAFMO

There’s not nearly enough data available to start blaming the unvaccinated for being the majority in hospital as some will not have been admitted for covid but tested positive on arrival for other conditions even those in ICU.

@userperuser

PAFMO

There’s not nearly enough data available to start blaming the unvaccinated for being the majority in hospital as some will not have been admitted for covid but tested positive on arrival for other conditions even those in ICU.

I'm not. You misunderstood.

Until about 3 weeks ago, the majority of patients in hospital with Covid were vaccinated.

But that didn't mean what the anti-vax movement claimed- which was that the vaccine didn't work. Because in a situation with a very high % of vaccinated people, it stands to reason that more hospitalisation cases would involve them. Plus, to guage the efficacy of the vaccine in keeping people out of hospital, you need to apply base rate fallacy.

Thanks for the link, I'll have a read.

@userperuser

PAFMO

There’s not nearly enough data available to start blaming the unvaccinated for being the majority in hospital as some will not have been admitted for covid but tested positive on arrival for other conditions even those in ICU.

I have no idea why percentages (and obesity ) are still being quibbled about when it is obvious vaccination reduces the chances of hospitlisation, and therefore the current pressure we're seeing.

No blame is not helpful and no one should be vaccinated if they don't want to, but it needs to be encouraged and I can see the rationale for mandating it for HCPs,

80% of those in hospital vaccinated and unvaccinated are also obese.

If your figure is correct that means that at least a third of the unvaccinated people in hospital are high risk because they are obese.

So the ‘at risk’ population is vaccinated except for people who are obese and people who have been admitted to ICU for other conditions.

Right.

I understand that it is anecdotal, but my daughters hospital is currently at 100% capacity with 70 of the 600 beds being occupied by covid patients. 5 of the 30 occupied ICU beds are for covid patients. But that is where the nuance of numbers and messaging comes in...

The hospital is full to capacity and 80% of their ICU covid patients are unvaccinated.

Perfectly true and accurate. But only 13% of the total ICU patients are unvaccinated, and only 16% of their total ICU patients are in ICU because of covid in the first place. And only 11% of their entire capacity is taken by covid patients.

@IrrelevantNameChange

Agree with most of that privatehall although surely if your point is vaccination isn’t having much of an effect on transmission you can’t also say people who aren’t vaccinated are causing a disproportionate disruption to the service? Or do you mean they are more likely to have to isolate because of the difference in rules around isolation for contacts based on vax status?

Apologies, yeh I meant because they are having to isolate due to being unvaccinated

@Maverickess thank you for the info and agreed you should be getting paid!

merrymouse

How do you know how many obese are not vaccinated because that data is not available?

What the stats in the report I posted do show is that BMI is risk factor regardless of vaccination status.

I’m sure those in ICU were protected from covid they just tested positive and unfortunately their vaccine didn’t protect them from heart failure etc.

@samyeagar

I understand that it is anecdotal, but my daughters hospital is currently at 100% capacity with 70 of the 600 beds being occupied by covid patients. 5 of the 30 occupied ICU beds are for covid patients. But that is where the nuance of numbers and messaging comes in...

The hospital is full to capacity and 80% of their ICU covid patients are unvaccinated.

Perfectly true and accurate. But only 13% of the total ICU patients are unvaccinated, and only 16% of their total ICU patients are in ICU because of covid in the first place. And only 11% of their entire capacity is taken by covid patients.

Now you need to compare those numbers with vaccinated and non-vaccinated in the whole of the US for them to be meaningful.

I don't agree with mandatory vaccination at all.
I'm in a dilemma as I've seen an NHS job I'm interested (not frontline) in but am only double jabbed so not sure if that's enough? I haven't had a booster as I had such a bad reaction from the first two and was ill for months. I'm still left with joint pain.

Mandatory jabs have had a devastating effect on care homes.

Some councils are now asking teachers to volunteer and for family’s to volunteer. Some homes have had to close and there is a growing number of elderly people in hospital who are blocking beds because they can’t go to care homes.

My mother has complex needs. I don’t want her looked after by a fucking teacher or someone else’s family member.

While the care providers still take full fees and presumably don't pay these volunteers to fill their rota thereby reducing their staffing costs.
Wonder where that extra money will end up in the pocket of the provider