How can they still say nothing?

[Purplegurple]

So numbers today over 183,000. How can BoJo and his cronies still be making no statement? No clear guidance, nothing. I'm not wanting lockdown or anything but can't believe they're so quiet over all this.

@SheikhMaraca

It’s a bizarre argument, to try and suggest the average person with a disability is in better overall health than a person without a disability.

Twisting themselves into a veritable Pretzel trying to rationalise their incorrect views.

Blind ideology is a terrible thing to witness.

Unfortunately, the UK seems to have reached a critical mass of these folks which is why we are all in trouble here.

@SheikhMaraca

It’s a bizarre argument, to try and suggest the average person with a disability is in better overall health than a person without a disability.

I am disabled, I have autism and education type 3, but I am probably in better health than the average non-disabled person, thanks to the fact that my hyper-focus is exercise.

*EDS not education ffs

@SheikhMaraca

It’s a bizarre argument, to try and suggest the average person with a disability is in better overall health than a person without a disability.

Said nobody on the thread You are embarrassing yourself

Many people with disabilities are in better health than people without disabilities

What exactly did you mean by this then?

The Equalities Act defines disability as being a ‘Significant Impairment’. It reasonable to conclude that, If the person does not experience poor health, then they are not impaired and hence not disabled.

You seem very sure that you’re right, but I’m afraid your logic is all over the place here.

My husband has paraplegia so is virtually unable to walk, which is a "significant impairment". His general health is excellent.

@SheikhMaraca

Many people with disabilities are in better health than people without disabilities

What exactly did you mean by this then?

The Equalities Act defines disability as being a ‘Significant Impairment’. It reasonable to conclude that, If the person does not experience poor health, then they are not impaired and hence not disabled.

You seem very sure that you’re right, but I’m afraid your logic is all over the place here.

What?

Impairment and poor health are separate issues.

Relative with moderate learning difficulties, receives disability benefit etc - fighting fit.
You could be born with one arm and be in great health.
ADHD and ASD can be significant impairments - what's the health issue they cause?
Of course many people will have health problems related to their disability, but you have a false definition in your mind and simply won't back down from it!

@Claudethecat

My husband has paraplegia so is virtually unable to walk, which is a "significant impairment". His general health is excellent.

Whilst it is obviously fantastic news that your DH has escaped all the usual health issues that go hand in hand with paraplegia, i think it’s disingenuous for you to generalise out from his individual case to conclude that all people with paraplegia are so fortunate.

The most significant health issue for wheelchair users is usually the difficulty they have in clearing their lungs with each breath, which makes them far more susceptible to lung infections, and hence far more vulnerable to Covid.

@Drunkpanda

Relative with moderate learning difficulties, receives disability benefit etc - fighting fit. You could be born with one arm and be in great health. ADHD and ASD can be significant impairments - what's the health issue they cause? Of course many people will have health problems related to their disability, but you have a false definition in your mind and simply won't back down from it!

Not at all, but the ONS figures state that people with mental impairment and learning disabilities account for approx 6% of all covid deaths.

While this is admittedly disproportionate, it’s very far from the ‘6 in 10 people who died with a covid are disabled’ statistic.

The difference in these figures strongly suggests that amongst people with disabilities who have died with covid, the deaths have not been evenly distributed across all types of disability.

Impairment and poor health are separate issues

The Cambridge Dictionary disagrees with you.

Do you really think arguing with me about semantics like this adds anything to the debate though?

He is correct in the aggregate.

People who fall under the banner of "disability" under the equality act have higher levels of average morbidity vs non-disabled folks.

Don't get bogged down into trying to justify why a specific disability might have less morbidity, because that is not what the poster meant.

In the aggregate sense, they are correct.

It is one of the main reasons why covid has impacted disabled folks so badly.

SheikhMaraca I did not extrapolate my husband's health to apply to everyone who has paraplegia. I simply gave you an example, as have others, of how disability does not automatically equal poor general health.

Anyway, you are convinced you are right, so I really cannot be bothered to argue the toss with you.

Indeed.

We need to stop the promulgation of this flawed narrative, that there were millions and millions of young, heathy people, who were in perfect health before being cut down in their prime by Covid.

The reality is, the overwhelming majority of people seriously impacted by covid were already very frail and unwell in the first place.

This reported Italian study is quite illuminating.

@Claudethecat

SheikhMaraca I did not extrapolate my husband's health to apply to everyone who has paraplegia. I simply gave you an example, as have others, of how disability does not automatically equal poor general health.

Anyway, you are convinced you are right, so I really cannot be bothered to argue the toss with you.

We can’t make policy based on individual edge cases.

I’m so pleased for your DH, but policy has to be formulated on the basis of what will deliver the maximum utility to society.

…and FwIW, I’m very happy to stand corrected, but opinions that have no basis in fact, or individual anecdotes are not really the basis of a strong argument.

I’m so pleased for your DH, but policy has to be formulated on the basis of what will deliver the maximum utility to society

I do not really understand what you are trying to say here. Most people with the form of paraplegia my husband has have a completely normal life expectancy, but are vulnerable to covid. Do their lives not matter?

@Claudethecat

I’m so pleased for your DH, but policy has to be formulated on the basis of what will deliver the maximum utility to society

I do not really understand what you are trying to say here. Most people with the form of paraplegia my husband has have a completely normal life expectancy, but are vulnerable to covid. Do their lives not matter?

Public spending is a finite resource.

Putting more money to help your DH means less money for say....education.

Its a balancing act that looks at how productive in the long-term those two investments are.

Unfortunately, investing in disabled people is very far down the priority list of most Governments. The current one in the UK is actually worse than average.

@Claudethecat

I’m so pleased for your DH, but policy has to be formulated on the basis of what will deliver the maximum utility to society

I do not really understand what you are trying to say here. Most people with the form of paraplegia my husband has have a completely normal life expectancy, but are vulnerable to covid. Do their lives not matter?

Parliament has decided (rightly) that society should be expected to make reasonable adjustments to offer people with disabilities equality of opportunity across the board.

The key word here is ‘reasonable’. When the adjustments that are required to be made to offer the individual disabled person equality of opportunity involve removing the civil liberties of millions and millions of other people, they cease to be reasonable.

It’s not about his life not mattering, it’s about weighing his individual against the lives of millions and millions of other people.

Unfortunately, investing in disabled people is very far down the priority list of most Governments. The current one in the UK is actually worse than average

Yes, true. I hope one day governments will be more imaginative and less ableist.

Funny how Johnson and co. discovered a veritable forest of magic money trees though, isn't it? Twas ever thus.

Just out of interest, what would you like to see change in public policy?

@SheikhMaraca

Just out of interest, what would you like to see change in public policy?

Well that is a whole other thread and something of a derail of this one. But some of what is outlined here might be a start.

www.scope.org.uk/about-us/everyday-equality/everyday-equality-strategy/

I meant in terms of the governments’s response to the pandemic, I’m not sure that’s a derail of the thread given it’s the actual issue raised by the OP?

There seems to be an awful lot of handwringing on this point, Government has handled it badly etc…

What would you have preferred them to do?

As far as I can tell, most countries have had a similar outcome, with a similar demographic distribution of deaths, irrespective of their individual policies. I’m interested to know what you think.

Ah, misunderstood. I am broadly happy with my goverment's response to the pandemic. Mistakes have been made of course, all countries have made mistakes. The pandemic has been a steep learning curve for everyone. But I have a lot of respect for our first minister, as do many here in Wales. Mark Drakeford is a good man who is not afraid to make difficult and unpopular decisions.