A possible solution to save the NHS from the unvaccinated

[HappySonHappyMum]

I think by now that most people have had ample opportunity to be vaccinated. Huge percentages of people in intensive care are only there because they are unvaccinated. Most people who remain unvaccinated have chosen to remain that way - excluding those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons obviously. Would it be unreasonable to ask the unvaccinated to sign a liabilty waiver that says they agree that their personal choice excludes them from free NHS treatment for Covid? I am not suggesting that they are left to die - that would be inhumane and unethical - but I think they should pay for their treatment as they have made an active choice to ignore medical advice. Their choices are preventing the NHS from providing help for those who are suffering from all kinds of other conditions that do not stem from a personal decision. The money could be ploughed back into the NHS. Is this unreasonable?

@Youarefakenews

It is time a lot of us actually researched the numbers instead of relying on what is posted on social media or the biased/sensationalist claptrap put out by news outlets.

As of today the NHS has just under 6500 ICU beds.

The number of patients using them today totals 842, this is 7 down on Yesterday.

The proportion of those vaccinated to non vaccinated has been approximately 65% Vaccinated to 35% Non Vaccinated. But even if these figures had been reversed it is still a tiny fraction of the available beds.

We also keep reading about how under staffed/resourced our NHS is. I live in Scotland, Over the past 5 years frontline staff like consultants & nurses has actually increased by 10%.

Right from the very beginning of this shit show, The NHS has never once came anywhere near actually hitting full capacity due to Covid. It is time we took the NHS down from the pedestal we hold it on and look at how it is being run subjectively. There are thousands of incredibly hard working Dr's & Nurses who did an amazing job throughout Covid, to which we all should be grateful. However these was also a massive amount of resource unused for months on end due to poor decision making by Goverment & management.

@Youarefakenews do you have a source for this by any chance? Not saying you're wrong at all. But if I were to relay this info to others (which I would like to because I actually think it's more accurate), they'll want a source.

Utterly unreasonable. Apart from not giving transplants if people don't change behaviours, we still treat everyone else how does the 'wrong' thing. Smokers, drinkers, poor lifestyle choices, etc- many, many people screw up their own health- and they don't get penalised. Those who don't get vaccinated should be be either.

Do just fuck off. I didn't invent covid. I do have choice over what i do with my body. I am still entitled to nhs treatment if i have chosen not to have a vaccine thank you.

@nellyburt

My best friend is a consultant on ICU. She says that the unvaccinated receive treatment but not care from the doctors and nurses who can barely look at them. She would quite happily put them all in a covid hotel with the army looking after them. She is a wonderful person but this has driven her to the edge.

Finding it hard to believe that ICU consultants' best friends frequent MN.

However, if true.... tell your "best friend" that they need to do a favour to all her patients (covid and others) and leave this profession, as they're clearly not cut out for medicine

Appalling. Absolutely appalling. People with views like the OP make me physically sick. What has happened to us?

Finding it hard to believe that ICU consultants' best friends frequent MN.

However, if true.... tell your "best friend" that they need to do a favour to all her patients (covid and others) and leave this profession, as they're clearly not cut out for medicine

You do realise that Doctors of all descriptions actually post on here don’t you?…

@XenoBitch

And can we please stop with this "The Unvaccinated" othering bullshit? People who have made a different choice to you are still human beings. Stop dehumanising them.

Fucking spot on 👏🏻👏🏻

I could literally re write your post but put chosen to be obese rather than chosen not to be vaccinated.
Why should all those who choose to keep themselves fit and slim have to bear the brunt of the huge pressure and taxes of those who choose to remain obese?
I think they should have to pay for medical aid if it’s a result of obesity because they have chosen to go against medical advice.- your words with obesity replacing unvaxxed.
People have had almost 2 years knowing that obesity is a big risk factor for covid and if you haven’t done something about it in that time why should everyone else suffer with the nhs being overwhelmed and threats of lockdown.
Take every single overweight person and make them pay for their treatment and then see how many beds are left for the slim and healthy people with covid.
Plenty I would imagine seeing as 65% of the country are obese.
Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it?

@Lilifer @XenoBitch

*XenoBitch
And can we please stop with this "The Unvaccinated" othering bullshit? People who have made a different choice to you are still human beings. Stop dehumanising them.

Fucking spot on* 👏🏻👏🏻

So ... you mean just like what has happened with the vulnerable and elderly since the pandemic began? Dehumanised and othered to the extent they are simply numbers? The difference there though - and I'm glad you pointed it out - is the vulnerable have no choice, where the unvaccinated largely do.

@Silverswirl but there isn't a jab that magically melts fat! If there is one, I really want it! I would even volunteer to be a guinea pig despite having a bmi of 23 (so probably not the target market). Also obese people don't all go into the ICU at the same time, and they don't make the doctors or nurses obese either. There are complex reasons why people are obese and it can take a long time to lose weight. its not really comparable to a binary decision- get the covid vaccination to protect yourself...or not.

Also we kinda tax the junk food eaters/obese people with a sugar tax. Same for cigarettes and alcohol. Governments do levy financial penalties on undesirable behaviors which cost the economy and the country.

I did see this article on the Guardian with a doctor saying they've now "lost patience" with the unvaccinated. Thought it was pretty disturbing of a doctor to say that considering how many people are in hospital for lifestyle choices they have made and then got very unlucky with, and they're all there filling up hospital beds technically taking up resources. I don't think we should judge or differentiate anyone once they are seriously ill.

@XenoBitch Well, obviously there would need to be other factors taken into account... I wasn't suggesting a blanket priority with nothing else taken into account. So, if there were two people of the same age, with similar levels of fitness and similar personal circumstances (i.e. dependents needing their support, or not), and only 1 bed available, then the vaccinated person should be given it, as they have tried to protect themself and society by having the vaccine. Also, chances are the vaccinated person would recover quicker and free up the bed.

Doctors have to make such decisions every day, they have to ration out the care and weigh up many factors. I don't envy them, their decisions affect who lives and who dies.

You do realise OP that most of the unvaccinated are not well off. In London, in particular. plenty are from ethnic minorities. So they don’t have the money to pay for treatment anyway.
Rich, white educated people who live in detached houses are largely vaccinated.

However, just compare vaccination rates in poorer London boroughs to the more middle class areas of both London and Surrey/Hampshire etc and there is your answer. There is probably even a correlation with crime rate. The more crime the less vaccinated.
The press needs to start focussing on which groups in particular are not vaccinated and why and what the patterns are.
Any financial punishment/incentive would always have to be proportionate eg lower benefits/higher taxes for the rich. You can’t have something where it doesn’t touch the rich (even if most are vaccinated).
Doctors are fed up because a vaccine is so readily available and easy to administer. You can’t easily undo 30 years of smoking and lose 50 pounds over night. However, again smoking and obesity rates much higher among poor people than richer, middle class people.
Poor people as a group tend to be less healthy than rich people, even before they are born. The only argument for mandatory vaccination is to protect this group from themselves but no idea how that could possibly work without further alienation.

Do the unvaccinated get a tax rebate under this system? You can't ask people to contribute to a system they're not allowed to benefit from.

The really scary thing is that soon people like you will be saying this sort of thing about unvaccinated children. No wonder plenty of parents don't really want the vaccine approved for younger age groups - it very quickly stops being a free choice.

@Midlander88

I did see this article on the Guardian with a doctor saying they've now "lost patience" with the unvaccinated. Thought it was pretty disturbing of a doctor to say that considering how many people are in hospital for lifestyle choices they have made and then got very unlucky with, and they're all there filling up hospital beds technically taking up resources. I don't think we should judge or differentiate anyone once they are seriously ill.

you can lose patience, think people are idiots, even dislike them, and still give proper professional care. I used to work in the NHS (retired now) and I met idiots, unpleasant people and so on every day but its not my business to judge them or decide what they are entitled to based on my opinion.

[quote Seemslikeagoodidea]@XenoBitch Well, obviously there would need to be other factors taken into account... I wasn't suggesting a blanket priority with nothing else taken into account. So, if there were two people of the same age, with similar levels of fitness and similar personal circumstances (i.e. dependents needing their support, or not), and only 1 bed available, then the vaccinated person should be given it, as they have tried to protect themself and society by having the vaccine. Also, chances are the vaccinated person would recover quicker and free up the bed.

Doctors have to make such decisions every day, they have to ration out the care and weigh up many factors. I don't envy them, their decisions affect who lives and who dies.[/quote]
in fact and so far as I know decisions are made on who will benefit from the available treatment and that will include such things as how distressed someone will be by what would need to be done and how likely that the treatment would be to make the patient worse in some respect....like giving CPR and breaking ribs.....personal circumstances don't come into it. In real life doctors don't make such decisions every day as its unlikely in the extreme that any two patients are completely identical.

I think ‘the unvaccinated’ should be made to wear signs around their necks and have a bell to ring so they can pre-warn the worthy, selfless vaccinated to get out of their germy way.

I’m fully vaccinated, pro vax and think people who don’t get vaccinated for silly reasons (microchip anyone?) are dim but that’s my right to think it and their right to decline a vaccine. I don’t want to live in a world where we decline treatment on the basis of someone not having a vaccine. :(

I am a fully vaxxed HCP working in a hospital. The idea of turning someone away who needed medical treatment because they chose not to get a vaccine and couldn't afford treatment is abhorrent.

@110APiccadilly

Do the unvaccinated get a tax rebate under this system? You can't ask people to contribute to a system they're not allowed to benefit from.

The really scary thing is that soon people like you will be saying this sort of thing about unvaccinated children. No wonder plenty of parents don't really want the vaccine approved for younger age groups - it very quickly stops being a free choice.

Do childless couples get a tax rebate for not using state education for their kids?

Do people who don't have fires get a rebate for not using the fire service?

My 17 year old Ds is unvaccinated ( the rest of our family are triple vaxed). He is autistic with significant and complex mental health difficulties. He is too anxious to consider vaccination at the moment. And I can't force him. He's currently barely able to leave his bedroom, let alone our home, so his risk is relatively low.

To think though, there are people out there that consider him not worthy of treatment, if he ever needed it, is shocking....

@Punxsutawney

My 17 year old Ds is unvaccinated ( the rest of our family are triple vaxed). He is autistic with significant and complex mental health difficulties. He is too anxious to consider vaccination at the moment. And I can't force him. He's currently barely able to leave his bedroom, let alone our home, so his risk is relatively low.

To think though, there are people out there that consider him not worthy of treatment, if he ever needed it, is shocking....

I think most sane people understand that some people have genuine health issues preventing them from being vaccinated. It's the others, that people have issues with.

Again and again and again it’s been said. The only people unvaccinated people are a risk to is themselves. Being vaccinated doesn’t stop you getting the virus or being infectious. This just doesn’t seem to have got through to people.

@Badbadbunny there's a big difference between, "Don't need to use," and "not allowed to use," though. If there were a group of people who were not allowed to use state schools for their children then I would say they shouldn't have to pay tax towards them.

Badbadbunny Unfortunately there doesn't seem be any differentiation ( on here anyway). The title of this thread proves that.
Ds is just considered to be one of 'the unvaccinated'.

they should contribute to their care as they actively avoided the solution to prevent them suffering for extreme illness.

So should bungee jumpers and speeding drivers also have to pay if they end up needing nhs care as a result of their activities?

They too actively avoided the solution to prevent an accident?!