A possible solution to save the NHS from the unvaccinated

[HappySonHappyMum]

I think by now that most people have had ample opportunity to be vaccinated. Huge percentages of people in intensive care are only there because they are unvaccinated. Most people who remain unvaccinated have chosen to remain that way - excluding those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons obviously. Would it be unreasonable to ask the unvaccinated to sign a liabilty waiver that says they agree that their personal choice excludes them from free NHS treatment for Covid? I am not suggesting that they are left to die - that would be inhumane and unethical - but I think they should pay for their treatment as they have made an active choice to ignore medical advice. Their choices are preventing the NHS from providing help for those who are suffering from all kinds of other conditions that do not stem from a personal decision. The money could be ploughed back into the NHS. Is this unreasonable?

@SockFluffInTheBath

My daughter was in ICU earlier this year, they saved her life. Would I have been pissed if a bed wasn’t available because it was full of unvaccinated Covid patients? Would any of us honestly be ‘ok’ with that?

Exactly. Until you are in this position no one understands fully how bad the situation could be for a loved one. A preventative treatment (vaccine) is available so we don’t end up in a broken down triage situation at hospitals and someone hogging resources because they decided not to have the vaccine. Unvaccinated covid patients choose to put themselves and people around them in danger by hogging resources. By all means they should have a treatment but I don’t see why they should be in the front of the queue of someone who took the vaccine and wanted to be position themselves in a safer position. If we all decide not to take the vaccine, saying “it’s my human right” rubbish, we will be in perpetual lockdown and it will be the survival of the fittest as hospitals will def collapse. So yes, keep clapping for the unvaccinated. Meh

The NHS doesn't need saving from patients, it needs saving from the chronic underfunding & massive mismanagement of the funds they do get (paying for memberships to random leech companies to train them in non health related nonsense instead of adding a member of frontline staff for instance).

No thanks!

I pay in to the system like everyone else.

What about the people who are not vaccinated and can not afford to pay if they become ill with covid?

Mumsnet is one mad place lately with these posts.

The NHS is not free. It is free at the point of use.
Unless you're saying they should get a refund of whatever they've paid into the system when they sign the waiver.

No, don't agree. Partly because I'm currently trying to address my lifestyle issues before my pre-diabetes turns into diabetes. My fault, but I don't want to pay for treatment when I already pay taxes towards the running of the NHS. It's the start of a road where everyone is judged to see whether they're worth of "free" treatment or not. At that point we may as well all take out private health insurance because the NHS will be fucked.

Plus though I don't approve, many vaccine deniers have varying forms of health anxiety, and telling them they'll have to pay up or possibly be left to die is not going to help them feel any better about what's going on.

@XenoBitch the nurses didn't discuss other patients with me. The ward was a peculiar shape so all the bays are not visible from any one point. I asked how many beds there were, if it was full, chit chat like that.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry I think that's a deliberate over-simplification. FWIW I'm not actually in favour of restricting care, but the reality is that a lot of acute care is being delayed due to the effects of covid on the NHS. My point about my daughter was a food for thought type comment, because it's going to happen to someone. It is already happening to someone. I don't know what the answer is short of impossibly massive and instant investment in the NHS.

@Starcup thank you for taking my post the way I meant it.

@HappySonHappyMum I'm so sorry. It's such an awful situation

*worthy

Motheroflions
The idea was that monetary policy could be further used to promote healthy lifestyles. Non smokers don’t pay the vast amounts of additional tax that smokers obviously do.

The NHS is cash strapped. It’s awful to read about ambulance wait times.

Well that is 100% our own fault for voting in governments that choose to starve the NHS of cash. And it's a separate issue.

The people I know who are too scared to have the vaccine rarely leave their homes anyway as they all suffer from agoraphobia/ mental health issues.

Didn’t think I would ever say this, but the NHS is no longer sustainable in its current form. Too many people, not enough staff, and total mismanagement with funds. I think all over 18’s should pay a premium for our healthcare (with some exceptions eg low income/disability) if you are low risk (don’t smoke/drink much, have recommended vaccinations) your premium would be lower. Those that then choose not to be vaccinated would pay more.

Oh, wait! Maybe we could get some felting for them to wear. Possibly in a star shape

Grotesque comparison

@Stormbraver99

The people I know who are too scared to have the vaccine rarely leave their homes anyway as they all suffer from agoraphobia/ mental health issues.

Yep, I have seen a few posters here mention having the same experience. That, or things like health anxiety and needle phobia are also stopping them getting the vaccine. It is awful how everyone who had not been jabbed is tarred with the same brush.

@HappySonHappyMum where is the source of the percentage of ITU being rammed with unvaccinated patients? I work in a hospital. We currently have 27 patients with covid. None in ITU.

Also, just because someone has chosen not to get the vaccine doesn’t make them an anti vaxer!! We were also discussing hospital waiting times and cancellations way before covid so that blows your theory right out of the water.

[quote SockFluffInTheBath]@XenoBitch the nurses didn't discuss other patients with me. The ward was a peculiar shape so all the bays are not visible from any one point. I asked how many beds there were, if it was full, chit chat like that.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry I think that's a deliberate over-simplification. FWIW I'm not actually in favour of restricting care, but the reality is that a lot of acute care is being delayed due to the effects of covid on the NHS. My point about my daughter was a food for thought type comment, because it's going to happen to someone. It is already happening to someone. I don't know what the answer is short of impossibly massive and instant investment in the NHS.

@Starcup thank you for taking my post the way I meant it.

@HappySonHappyMum I'm so sorry. It's such an awful situation [/quote]
Acute care was regularly delayed before covid as well.

One one occasion when my dd had surgery which needed a stay in PICU post op the surgery was on again and off again 3 times in less than 24 hours as bed availability changed, and was then finally on again.

@FreeElf

Didn’t think I would ever say this, but the NHS is no longer sustainable in its current form. Too many people, not enough staff, and total mismanagement with funds. I think all over 18’s should pay a premium for our healthcare (with some exceptions eg low income/disability) if you are low risk (don’t smoke/drink much, have recommended vaccinations) your premium would be lower. Those that then choose not to be vaccinated would pay more.

What if you have a congenital condition. You risk of needing £100,000s worth of treatment could be 100%. Are they expect to pay a premium as well?

It is almost impossible to get holiday insurance for someone with a serious congenital condition for a simple trip to France because the cost of repatriation would be so high.

@jgw1 I hope your DD is recovered the trouble is that covid is only making it worse. Vaccinated or unvaccinated, some people need a lot of care but we're statistically more likely to be seriously ill without the vaccines.

It is true the NHS has been on its knees for years but not to the extent it was prior to the 2 lockdowns. My husband was never told to cut his clinical oncology work by 50% to free up capacity for other things before. And yes that’s one hospital, but I think the fact the NHS redeployed the majority of its resources into covid during the peaks is very widely known.

The unvaccinated are disproportionately admitted into hospital and it’s making the problem worse. I don’t think you can go down the road the OP is suggesting, but I think people trying to claim covid is nothing more than ordinary winter pressure are totally misled.

How would that help as they'd still have to be treated even if they had to pay so would not relieve any of the pressure!!

Wtaf? Hardly used the NHS my entire life compared to amount I have contributed so far. What about smokers, obese, drinkers and drug users who flood our NHS everyday? Well I would like a refund for all I have paid for this many years if I ever get refused a treatment because im not vaccinated for reasons that is no one's business that I ever have to justify especially to some bitter keyboard warrior who has nothing better to do than create divide and hatred. Who the fuck are you to have the audacity to even suggest this?

Just another pokey post.

@LaurieFairyCake

Right I don't want the nhs to be a pick and choose service

But I'd have no problem with people being called in individually to their GPs to have the risks explained to them and them sign a sheet that says the risks have been explained to them

(And I'd have no problem with people having to take private health insurance out to bungee jump/ski/or various other risky sports - I ski, I'd be happy to pay for insurance if I did)

HOWEVER

This must only be accompanied by PAID time off for people to actually get vaccines - a considerable percentage of people do not have easy fucking lives like me and can't get to a vaccination centre easily or without losing money

I’m guessing you haven’t tried to get a doctors appointment lately? They are like gold dust!

Also by having a doctor explain the risks to each non vaccinated person will take their time away from someone who actually needs medical attention. The unvaccinated will be then blamed again…

I also don’t understand what signing a piece of paper to say the risks are understood would achieve. I don’t need a my doctor to tell me the risks thank you.

It's not going to happen

[quote SockFluffInTheBath]@jgw1 I hope your DD is recovered the trouble is that covid is only making it worse. Vaccinated or unvaccinated, some people need a lot of care but we're statistically more likely to be seriously ill without the vaccines.[/quote]
Recovered is not a word used in the part of the hospital we visit most frequently.

We also know that obesity means one is more likely to be seriously ill with covid and a whole manner of other life limiting conditions.

Should I be angry at the obese for taking up resources that could be used elsewhere?