A possible solution to save the NHS from the unvaccinated

[HappySonHappyMum]

I think by now that most people have had ample opportunity to be vaccinated. Huge percentages of people in intensive care are only there because they are unvaccinated. Most people who remain unvaccinated have chosen to remain that way - excluding those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons obviously. Would it be unreasonable to ask the unvaccinated to sign a liabilty waiver that says they agree that their personal choice excludes them from free NHS treatment for Covid? I am not suggesting that they are left to die - that would be inhumane and unethical - but I think they should pay for their treatment as they have made an active choice to ignore medical advice. Their choices are preventing the NHS from providing help for those who are suffering from all kinds of other conditions that do not stem from a personal decision. The money could be ploughed back into the NHS. Is this unreasonable?

It was reported on several news sources today that there is less than 150 Omicron cases currently in hospital. 14 with Omicron had died within 28 days. Obviously those 14 may have had other contributing factors to their death such as cancer, etc.

They also said the reason the NHS was overwhelmed was due to so many staff either being sick with covid or having to isolate. Not because of overwhelming high patient numbers.

Omicron is a much more mild variant now. 50-70% less likely to put you in hospital. (this stat was also just published today)

As other posters have said, not all people that chose to not get the covid vaccine are anti-vaxx'ers. They're making a choice to not get this particular vaccine and their reasons so are probably widely varied. Saying that all people who chose not to get the vaccine is like saying all type 2 diabetics are fat fucks and their illness was self inflected and they should have known better than to eat so much, so they will have to pay for their own NHS care 🤦🏼‍♀️

@jgw1 I'm so sorry. I don't want to fight with you over something I think we're fundamentally in agreement on. Life can be so brutally unfair.

Didn’t think I would ever say this, but the NHS is no longer sustainable in its current form. Too many people, not enough staff, and total mismanagement with funds. I think all over 18’s should pay a premium for our healthcare (with some exceptions eg low income/disability) if you are low risk (don’t smoke/drink much, have recommended vaccinations) your premium would be lower. Those that then choose not to be vaccinated would pay more.

Sounds a lot like a tax to me, except with loads of really expensive admin on top to facilitate it.

Can I ask where your data is from, the latest I read was that it was around 40% of covid related hospital admissions were unvaccinated.

OP, I understand the feelings of frustration about vaccine refusers who end up using valuable NHS resources when they catch Covid, but I din't think this is a practical solution. However, I do think that if things get dire and there is a chronic shortage of hospital beds, the vaccinated patients should be given priority over refusers.

[quote SockFluffInTheBath]@jgw1 I'm so sorry. I don't want to fight with you over something I think we're fundamentally in agreement on. Life can be so brutally unfair.[/quote]
If you are of the view that health care should be free at the point of delivery, that it is appalling to suggest that any particular group of people should be charged because we do not like their life choices and that it is none of anyone else's business why a particular patient is in ICU then we are in agreement.

Life is what it is, I wouldn't say it was unfair. My dd's grandfather is alive today in part because of a trial she was on PICU at 7 days old.

Omicron is a much more mild variant now.

I don't think that's been established yet (hopefully it will be).
As I understand it Omicron seems lest harmful because so many people have build up some immunity, either through infection or vaccination or both. Teasing out whether omicron is more or less harmful than Delta hasn't been done.

@Seemslikeagoodidea

OP, I understand the feelings of frustration about vaccine refusers who end up using valuable NHS resources when they catch Covid, but I din't think this is a practical solution. However, I do think that if things get dire and there is a chronic shortage of hospital beds, the vaccinated patients should be given priority over refusers.

So, for example, a terminally ill person in their late 80s would be given priority over a 30 something who only has Covid? Purely on account that the former has had the vaccine, and the latter hasn't? Surely you can see the problem with this?

If you are of the view that health care should be free at the point of delivery, that it is appalling to suggest that any particular group of people should be charged because we do not like their life choices and that it is none of anyone else's business why a particular patient is in ICU then we are in agreement. Then yes, we are. I was trying to make people think- it's very easy to be blase when you don't have to walk behind your child's bed into a place like that, or worse still need to but are unable. I've never said people should be charged or refused, that would be wrong, and not how the NHS operates.

Heruka: But you need to be angry with our government for running the NHS at 100% capacity for many years - there is no safety net. Previously it was run at 80% to allow for unexpected events

EXACTLY! This worship of 'efficiency' - i.e. doing everything with a few staff and resources as possible - is proving our ruin.

@Kendodd

Omicron is a much more mild variant now.

I don't think that's been established yet (hopefully it will be).
As I understand it Omicron seems lest harmful because so many people have build up some immunity, either through infection or vaccination or both. Teasing out whether omicron is more or less harmful than Delta hasn't been done.

Yes. It has.

"The first studies of real-world hospitalisation dataa from Scotland and England suggest the Omicronn variant does cause milder illness than the Delta variant it is fast outpacing."

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-data-that-omicron-causes-milder-illness-than-delta-is-good-news-but-two-big-questions-remain-12502355

www.bbc.com/news/health-59769969

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-most-cases-now-like-severe-cold-and-omicron-appears-to-produce-fairly-mild-illness-expert-says-12497094

It's been all over the news, and has been reported from South African doctors And scientists for weeks, but the UK went into panic mode without taking much consideration of their data.

@ddl1

Heruka: But you need to be angry with our government for running the NHS at 100% capacity for many years - there is no safety net. Previously it was run at 80% to allow for unexpected events

EXACTLY! This worship of 'efficiency' - i.e. doing everything with a few staff and resources as possible - is proving our ruin.

Labour changed it to run at 95% capacity and Tories have carried this on.

Someone could write something funny about "what of it was the other way round and the vaccines end up having awful side effects"?

Unfortunately the deal done means no one has any recourse if they get sick...

One does wonder if there will be a reckoning over all the ill informed hatred going on? There's a lot of humble pie on the horizon but those who know they need to eat it will have probably moved on to someone else to hate by then!

While we are on the subject of charging people for healthcare, can we consider charging the parents of children who need specialist healthcare provision as a result of a consanguineous marriage?

Or shall we go down the route of Israel and allow people to sue the state for wrongful birth?

I think we should also judge people on how nice they are too. Only nice people go free 🙄

I see both sides of the argument but come what may, the NHS has limited resources and I am sure people would not mind waiting a bit longer in A & E to be patched up as the resources have been re-allocated to the ICU ward for CV 19 people who have not been vaccinated

The data tells a frighting picture of unvaccinated in ICU 😳

I think there needs to come to a point when we ask ourselves - is it really necessary to isolate if you've come into contact with a covid case.

Currently there was more than 18,000 NHS staff off sick last week – up by 50%

Don't blame the unvaccinated solely for the downfall of the NHS. It's clear that the lack of staffing is an issue here. Overworked staff, poor pay and Brexit didn't help.

With omicron becoming the dominant variant and proven to be much more and less likely to put you in the hospital, fingers crossed its only a matter of time before covid cases start to ease up in hospitals.

Patients can suffer and die of or with Covid. How do you know if someone with lupus who is also Covid positive is ill because one or the other, or Parkinson’s, MS, lymphoma, heart disease. Who calls it? Who decides if they are there for the Covid or their pre existing condition?

@Mrsbrightside1

Patients can suffer and die of or with Covid. How do you know if someone with lupus who is also Covid positive is ill because one or the other, or Parkinson’s, MS, lymphoma, heart disease. Who calls it? Who decides if they are there for the Covid or their pre existing condition?

I could be wrong, but they label a death that has occurred within 28 days of being positive with covid as a covid death. So the person could have had a heart attack due to blocked arteries from years of a bad diet, or being hit by a bus. They're still labelled as a covid death. There has been many families over the past 2yrs who have tried to fight to have covid removed from the death certificate and been unsuccessful.

So the 14 people who have died WITH omicron did just that. They had it within 28 days of death. Doesn't mean they died from it

Can't say I'm against the idea of unvaccinated people having a stay at home lockdown order to keep them safe while the rest of us get on with our lives though.

Umm... 🤔

Imagine a scenario where the "you" in this statement is 59 and morbidity obese and the "me" reading this is a slim 29 year old who already has antibodies for whom covid was statistically always going to be a doddle.

Why do you think you need to keep me safe? Genuinely? The figures cleverly mix up the age groups between cases and hospitalisations but I don't even care because it's obvious despite that. 1,700 people 18-29 hospitalised with covid (so probably less because of covid) and 73,000 20-24 positive tests (so probably more because asymptomatic and definitely more considering the next age group up covering 24+ is 250,000).

Even with 95% relative reduction and 0.7% absolute reduction (does anyone even claim these are still accurate?! And don't we need boosters that start the decline after 10 weeks?) how anyone can say I need to be locked up to keep myself safe is genuinely laughable.

I don't need or want your faux concern thank you, but I hope you enjoyed how virtuous typing it out and hitting post made you feel.

Sure- I was just trying to say how it is not clear cut in the case of someone struggling with complications -if they stem solely from Covid (and a result of their refusal to vaccinate) or from their pre existing conditions.

WtF - no, just no!

@WineGetsMeThroughIt
This was the point I was making about omicron.
What was hard for the Scottish analysis to do was assess whether Omicron was intrinsically more mild than Delta, or just looks that way because so many people in Scotland are either vaccinated or had been previously infected.

Later in the Sky news peice it does say this though.

That's where another hot-off-the-press analysis from Imperial College in London comes in. Due to huge numbers of Omicron cases in London and rapidly rising rates of hospitalisation in the capital, they had more raw data to draw on.

Their analysis was a bit more nuanced. It found the risk of an overnight stay in hospital was about 40-45% lower with Omicron than Delta. And a reduction in the risk of a day visit by around 15 to 25%.

But the Imperial researchers were able to estimate that if you had no immunity at all (either through vaccination or prior infection) you were around 11% less likely to go to hospital with Omicron than with Delta.
So that looks hopefully like good news although even if omicron severity is only blunted because of the vaccine programme, that's still good news.

100% agree that the unvaccinated should pay for their treatment. For those who cry "what about obesity or alcoholism!". Well, if someone who was an alcoholic or obese refused a simple jab that would significantly reduce their risk of disease, then they should pay too. We all pay out taxes, but we expect them to be used effectively, not wasted on people who refuse assistance provided by the vaccine.

The very same people who have been pontificating about the wonderful NHS and how marvelous it is that the UK has a system that is free at the point of service for everyone are now wanting to exclude certain people from this marvelous system, based on a personal choice they have made.