Page 10 | A possible solution to save the NHS from the unvaccinated

cherryonthecakes · 24/12/2021 13:50

[quote 110APiccadilly]**@Badbadbunny* there's a big difference between, "Don't need to use," and "not allowed to use," though. If there were a group of people who were not allowed* to use state schools for their children then I would say they shouldn't have to pay tax towards them.[/quote]
I'd argue that church schools fell under that criteria. I can apply but my kids won't get a spot even if we lived next door because we aren't religious

cherryonthecakes · 24/12/2021 13:52

they should contribute to their care as they actively avoided the solution to prevent them suffering for extreme illness.

You're not guaranteed to avoid hospitalisation if you're vaccinated. It's like seatbelts- you improve the odds of escaping serious injury if you wear one but you still may become injured or even die in a crash.

Remmy123 · 24/12/2021 14:02

We pay taxes so we get free healthcare.

Op your clueless.

onlychildhamster · 24/12/2021 14:04

@cherryonthecakes well you could use them if you became religious. I converted to Judaism (not for the school's lol as I don't even have a child yet) and that has the most barriers compared to Christianity or Islam as you have to learn Hebrew and attend weekly classes for a year. My mil converted to orthodox Judaism which involved staying with a Jewish family for 3 years and lots of lessons (which her fiancee had to attend too). But the criteria for religious schools is often just attendance at a service so far less onerous. It isn't direct discrimination if it's something you can choose to do.

For vaxxers, it's just a jab. It is far far less onerous.

CombatBarbie · 24/12/2021 15:38

@nellyburt

My best friend is a consultant on ICU. She says that the unvaccinated receive treatment but not care from the doctors and nurses who can barely look at them. She would quite happily put them all in a covid hotel with the army looking after them. She is a wonderful person but this has driven her to the edge.

Then I would question why she is a consultant tbh...... Quite frankly that's a disgusting attitude to have.

And I hardly think it's a true story seeings the NHS is due to lose 126000 staff come April because they are not vaccinated.

Lilifer · 24/12/2021 15:58

[quote Dishhh]**@Lilifer* @XenoBitch*

*XenoBitch
And can we please stop with this "The Unvaccinated" othering bullshit? People who have made a different choice to you are still human beings. Stop dehumanising them.

Fucking spot on* 👏🏻👏🏻

So ... you mean just like what has happened with the vulnerable and elderly since the pandemic began? Dehumanised and othered to the extent they are simply numbers? The difference there though - and I'm glad you pointed it out - is the vulnerable have no choice, where the unvaccinated largely do.[/quote]
Sorry has someone on this thread suggested that elderly or CEV folk should be charged for their treatment if they get covid?

Must have missed that, can you point me to it?🤔

LookslovelyinSpringtime · 24/12/2021 16:32

@nellyburt

I agree with @CombatBarbie. I find your comment really shocking, and if it's true your friend shouldn't be a consultant. My brother is in hospital at the moment fighting for his life against Covid. He isn't vaccinated. The staff are exceptionally caring and excellent at their jobs. If I thought any of them had the attitude your friend has, I would be deeply upset.

What a really horrible thing to post.

Mamajunebugjones · 24/12/2021 22:37

nellyburt
“My best friend is a consultant on ICU. She says that the unvaccinated receive treatment but not care from the doctors and nurses who can barely look at them. She would quite happily put them all in a covid hotel with the army looking after them. She is a wonderful person but this has driven her to the edge.”

I can’t imagine the toll caring for covid patients in ICU has had on your friend. From your post it sounds like she’s not the only one in department worn down by the pandemic.

I am sure she will continue to provide safe treatment to all patients.

As for those who say she should stop work- perhaps she should take a break, but it would most likely have an adverse impact on her colleagues and the department so she’s probably soldiering on.

LookslovelyinSpringtime · 24/12/2021 22:38

Well she shouldn’t be with that attitude. It’s appalling.

Mamajunebugjones · 24/12/2021 22:52

Shouldn’t be what? Working? Doctors are the worst for taking time off when they need to. It’s the obligation they feel to their patients and colleagues. Mental distress is also not as observable as poor physical health.

Interesting link for you
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-study-suggests-almost-half-of-icu-staff-have-turned-to-alcohol-or-had-suicidal-thoughts-12186480

whittingtonmum · 25/12/2021 05:09

I think Australia tried and could not make it work.
But I totally agree that the unvaccinated hogging ICU beds is a huge problem. Assume some cancer patients will die because of the delay in treatment and operations etc and the rest of us are likely to face severe restrictions again to stop the NHS being overwhelmed.

But as you can see on the threat many people are totally in favour for the unvaccinated out of choice to have their freedoms - just ruins it for the rest of us. But apparently that's ethical.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 25/12/2021 07:07

“Hogging ICU beds”
What a horrific way to speak about people who are fighting for their lives. They are human beings! Those cancer patients who you feel to be more deserving could have made equally poor “choice(s) to have their freedoms” which culminated in them getting cancer.
Maybe there should be a ticky box exercise as we enter hospitals to see if we’re virtuous enough to be deemed worthy of life saving treatment.

Mamajunebugjones · 25/12/2021 07:11

Lovelyinspringtime- I hope your brother pulls through.

LookslovelyinSpringtime · 25/12/2021 07:50

Such a horrible, judgemental thread.

@Mamajunebugjones thank you. He has turned the corner now.

AlohaMolly · 25/12/2021 08:15

Full disclosure - I think your idea is horrendous.

However

What would your definition of vaccinated be? Up until recently the accepted definition was those of us that had had two jabs. Now it’s those who have had three. I’m not eligible yet as I’m not three months past my second jab - would I still get hospital treatment?

coraka · 25/12/2021 08:33

No, I don't think that would work. At the point they need care, you can't refuse it. However, perhaps different restrictions could be considered for the unvaccinated - preventing them from entering entertainment venues etc when pressure on the NHS is high.

Monday55 · 25/12/2021 09:14

NHS is not FREE, income tax & NI goes towards its funding.

A lot of things that need hospital treatment are because of peoples choices. Even being pregnant it's a choice someone makes to start a family. Are you going to say they should get private treatment and not burden then NHS with their pregnancy.

Come New years Eve A&E will be heaving with drunken people with all sorts of injuries.

When does it end ?

puppeteer · 25/12/2021 09:16

I don’t think it’s be unethical.

But you have to be willing that the unvaccinated can get taxes that would have gone to the NHS back.

You would have to have some kind of compensation scheme for unvaccinated that do use the NHS for some other reason, but who catch Covid whilst there.

I think compensation would be very tricky, so in practice it would probably be that non-vaccination is a full opt out of NHS, and in practice those people will still need care, so their taxes would be spent on private insurance.

Cornettoninja · 25/12/2021 09:36

I don’t agree with the premise but it would also pile more pressure on the NHS. Imagine the administration and man hours needed to coordinate and implement collection of funds (which would no doubt be appealed by many heaping more pressure on the court system and NHS legal services).

The NHS isn’t great at managing recouping money from those already needing to pay (foreign nationals), they’re just not set up like that and the midst of a pandemic isn’t the time to start imho. The simplest process you can think of is never that simple in an organisation the size of the NHS.

Youarefakenews · 26/12/2021 15:44

This site is I find to be the easiest read and most concise of the trackers. www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/

This site gives the bed numbers for England: www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-

Details on staff levels in Scotland: www.gov.scot/news/nhs-staffing-reaches-record-high/

Acinaces · 26/12/2021 15:48

@HappySonHappyMum

I think by now that most people have had ample opportunity to be vaccinated. Huge percentages of people in intensive care are only there because they are unvaccinated. Most people who remain unvaccinated have chosen to remain that way - excluding those that cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons obviously. Would it be unreasonable to ask the unvaccinated to sign a liabilty waiver that says they agree that their personal choice excludes them from free NHS treatment for Covid? I am not suggesting that they are left to die - that would be inhumane and unethical - but I think they should pay for their treatment as they have made an active choice to ignore medical advice. Their choices are preventing the NHS from providing help for those who are suffering from all kinds of other conditions that do not stem from a personal decision. The money could be ploughed back into the NHS. Is this unreasonable?

Don't be so STUPID.

Shall we start charging the obese? Perhaps people who smoke, drink or take drugs?

Acinaces · 26/12/2021 15:51

The OP is clearly deluded. We ALL pay enough tax to be entitled to free healthcare.

Let's start charging the obese for treatment on the NHS? Oh, let's charge smokers for their cancer treatment?

No. We absolutely shouldn't.

LookslovelyinSpringtime · 26/12/2021 19:14

Let’s charge people who drink drive and have car accidents. Those who don’t wear seatbelts. Let’s charge people who overdose and self harm. Let’s charge people who slip on ice because they were too stupid to watch where they were going. Let’s charge people get into fights and get injured...a literally endless number of exemptions could be made.

Badbadbunny · 26/12/2021 19:27

@LookslovelyinSpringtime

Let’s charge people who drink drive and have car accidents. Those who don’t wear seatbelts. Let’s charge people who overdose and self harm. Let’s charge people who slip on ice because they were too stupid to watch where they were going. Let’s charge people get into fights and get injured...a literally endless number of exemptions could be made.

There is some merit though. If, say, we had an insurance based system, then you could have a "no claims discount" and/or premiums based on risk factors. That was incentivise people to make better choices in the same way that people make choices when they buy a car and insurance is based on the car, mileage, age, accident history, convictions history, etc.

LookslovelyinSpringtime · 26/12/2021 19:30

Goodbye NHS then. Fine if you can afford it. Many people can’t.