Govt plans re unvaccinated feels like a change is afoot

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Anyone noticed the govt and news sources seem to be covering more and more stories regarding the unvaccinated (by choice)
I feel they might be ramping up support for restrictions for unvaccinated people.
It's feel very much like propaganda and warm up the masses.
Anyone agree or noticed this in the last 3/4 days?

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Isn't this going to be spectacularly difficult to implement?

To start with there are already debates about how long vaccine efficacy lasts, so boosters.... but how long do they last? So if you have an ever moveable feast regarding who counts as unvaccinated, people are going to be cycling in and out of vaccinated status indefinitely.

I looked up how many unvaccinated eligible people there are supposed to be, and best guess from a Guardian article is 6 million. Out of the total UK population of 68 million. I assume this is people who have had no vaccines at all.

People who have had Covid and are probably going to have some form of immunity from that probably make up some of this group.

This us all making less and less sense to me, however the drive on Mymsnet seems to be to paint anyone who is unvaccinated as an enemy of the state - arrogant, selfish, thick, and not forgetting far right conspiracy theorists. In actuality a good proportion are vaccine hesitant, not Covid deniers, and often for personal reasons that have undermined their faith in the system. And this isn't helped by the flagrant disregard for health regulations demonstrated by those imposing them.

It is an interesting experiment in psychology of the masses using the most emotive subject imaginable - how far will Joe public go to "protect" their fellow citizens (those deemed worthy) if it means ostracising a group who may also suffer, not necessarily from the virus, but by being penalised and impoverished. But that's their own fault right? For not making the right choices. And its "only" 6 million. Who might not actually get Covid, nor pass it on, nor end up hospitalised. But who might end up needing state support to survive, another stick to beat them with. Or should they be denied that?

What strange and interesting times we live in.

Absolutely this 💯

@Flowerlane - even the Archbishop of Canterbury has said that people refusing the vaccination are immoral.

You may not be a religious person or agree with all his views, but you can’t deny that he is a public figure - so it appears to be a matter very much in the public discourse.

[quote DottyHarmer]@Flowerlane - even the Archbishop of Canterbury has said that people refusing the vaccination are immoral.

You may not be a religious person or agree with all his views, but you can’t deny that he is a public figure - so it appears to be a matter very much in the public discourse.[/quote]
It's certainly a bit of an odd thing for him to come out with. I wonder if he thinks St Peter will be sat at the gates of heaven with a QR scanner checking Covid passports before deciding whether or not to let people through?

I find it odd that people are equating being a good, moral person with having a vaccine even though we now know that it mostly protects the person who takes it. They seem to think it's acceptable to be intolerant, impatient and unkind towards others so long as they've had a jab in their arm (or two, three, four - whatever the current recommended total is). The human race has managed to come through far worse epidemics with their humanity intact. With the current toxic atmosphere being stirred up in the press and on social media I wonder if that will be the case with this one?

The idea that people aren’t discussing the unvaccinated is just daft.
Everyone from football managers to scientists to religious leaders are weighing in publicly about it.

Yep, “love your neighbour (unless they’re unvaccinated)”

@HelloMissus - That's not the people, that's the press! They are having a field day trying to stir up resentment & create a convenient scapegoat. Fortunately most of the people I know are too perceptive to fall for it.

Yes it seems a bit anti Christian to me

Maybe Jesus would have forgiven..

Been a while since I attended church (childhood)

@Frozentoes2

I do understand the arguments being put forward that the vaccine reduces how infectious a person will be with covid and how long they’ll have it for.

BUT even if every single person was jabbed the virus would still spread. And there are so many other factors that make a person more likely to be ill with it for a long time - eg smoking, obesity, unhealthy lifestyle - why aren’t these people being scapegoated for taking up hospital beds?

Does anyone have any stats for how many have died of flu this year versus covid? Because there are so many nasty respiratory illnesses going round at this time, some of them must be a bigger threat to the clinically vulnerable than covid.

Also the risk of the jab is so different for different ages. If you are in your 70s taking it is a no brainer. If you’re 25 and covid isn’t a threat to you I can see why you’d think why should I put myself at risk with multiple untested vaccines? The young have already sacrificed so much for the well-being of the old.

Whilst I don’t disagree entirely with your post the level of whataboutary is really high.

Resolving lifestyle issues isn’t going to do a fat lot in the short term, vaccines are. Flu and other respiratory illnesses are known risks with established treatment pathways and vaccines - that’s where we’re trying to get to with covid.

Fwiw I do recognise the very low risks associated with vaccines but I also recognise the low risks associated with covid alongside the wider risks that aren’t directly a result of covid itself. I can’t square the logic that someone who isn’t concerned about covid is concerned about a vaccine. The probability that you’ll be fine with both is very high, but the risks aren’t comparable imho. At the very least immediate risks from the vaccines are known whereas infection risks are a gamble. Long term, depends on what you believe but the official line is vaccines don’t carry a long term risk (because they do what they do and then leave the body). It might take longer to discover an effect but it will have happened within a very short time frame from receiving the vaccine. That’s not true of covid which can cause damage without you feeling particularly unwell and can hang about for much longer.

Does it work for other public health campaigns?

Don’t smoke etc..

Religious persuasion of any type should be separate imo

Comparisons of the absolute numbers, as some headlines do, is making a mistake that’s known in statistics as a ‘base rate fallacy’: it ignores the fact that one group is much larger than the other.

ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

The Archbishop is on dangerous ground with the statement he gave.

And I say that as a religious person.

@Flowerlane

The Archbishop is on dangerous ground with the statement he gave.

And I say that as a religious person.

Yeah, I think that too. Also, we only need to look back a few years at religious attitudes towards abortion/unmarried mothers/the LGBT community etc. to see that they are not always what could be considered compassionate or right.

@Flowerlane

The Archbishop is on dangerous ground with the statement he gave.

And I say that as a religious person.

Yes very dangerous ground as he seems to have forgotten God’s unconditional love.

Yes very dangerous ground as he seems to have forgotten God’s unconditional love

What bs is this?!? God’s love, according to organised religion, is very conditional.

@bumbleymummy

A hateful comment from the Archbishop. Pretty sure Jesus would have been out in the streets singing with the ‘unclean’.

And the vaccine is far more effective at protecting yourself than your neighbour.

Stopping smoking does more to protect yourself than the person next to you breathing in second hand smoke. Nevertheless, we have made it illegal to smoke inside public venues, because it's unfair for staff and others (including vulnerable people) to suffer for someone else's choice.

Conditional based on vaccination status? Seems the point where it tips into ridiculous

If you don’t get a booster does it switch

Children who can be, included in judgement I wonder

And I’d love uptake you be high and think there are healthcare issues but can’t go with it

@Cornettoninja

Yes very dangerous ground as he seems to have forgotten God’s unconditional love

What bs is this?!? God’s love, according to organised religion, is very conditional.

Religion maybe but not God.

@DoleWhipFloat

I have every sympathy for your situation and anyone else that genuinely struggles with mask wearing but you haven't seen what I have seen, and there is no way that every single person that flouts the rules where I work would fall into your category.

The ones that do are genuinely very apologetic and nice about it. These people are brash rude and swear at us we have been called Cunt threatened with court action and so on so I don't believe any genuine person would behave like that you always get the minorities That think they are above the law or above what everyone else is doing and these people are 100% those types of people. those that are genuine are respectful and appreciative of our understanding. When you have worked with the general public as long as I have you soon get a feel for what's going on.

[quote milkyaqua]Comparisons of the absolute numbers, as some headlines do, is making a mistake that’s known in statistics as a ‘base rate fallacy’: it ignores the fact that one group is much larger than the other.

ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination[/quote]
This !
The proportion of unvaccinated people is much smaller than the proportion of our society that are vaccinated.
So the previous posters who look at the numbers of unvaccinated as opposed vaccinated in hospital aren’t comparing like with like.
Let’s say 80% of people are vaccinated.
20% of people are unvaccinated.
The hospital has 100 patients in ICU. A 50/50% split of the vaccinated and unvaccinated.Somebody better at stats can work out the percentage chance of being admitted, but it’s obviously over 3 or 4 times more likely than if you were vaccinated.

RubyViolet

This !
The proportion of unvaccinated people is much smaller than the proportion of our society that are vaccinated.
So the previous posters who look at the numbers of unvaccinated as opposed vaccinated in hospital aren’t comparing like with like.
Let’s say 80% of people are vaccinated.
20% of people are unvaccinated.
The hospital has 100 patients in ICU. A 50/50% split of the vaccinated and unvaccinated.Somebody better at stats can work out the percentage chance of being admitted, but it’s obviously over 3 or 4 times more likely than if you were vaccinated.

It is 70% double jabbed
If you want to calculate statistics you should base them on official data available
As 70/30 gives you different result than your proposed 80/20

@MrsBillyNoJagNoMates

RubyViolet

This !
The proportion of unvaccinated people is much smaller than the proportion of our society that are vaccinated.
So the previous posters who look at the numbers of unvaccinated as opposed vaccinated in hospital aren’t comparing like with like.
Let’s say 80% of people are vaccinated.
20% of people are unvaccinated.
The hospital has 100 patients in ICU. A 50/50% split of the vaccinated and unvaccinated.Somebody better at stats can work out the percentage chance of being admitted, but it’s obviously over 3 or 4 times more likely than if you were vaccinated.

It is 70% double jabbed
If you want to calculate statistics you should base them on official data available
As 70/30 gives you different result than your proposed 80/20

I can’t calculate the stats, l will fudge the for sure. l will leave them to someone with a more mathematical brain. Even at 70/30 % in reference to an earlier post of the ICU beds containing 50/50 vaxxed/ unvaxxed , it illustrates quite clearly that the chance of being hospitalised when unvaccinated are way higher.

I just keep reading the headlines and scratching my head when this isn’t made clear.

Lots of people I know are now talking on WhatsApp groups about sanctions for the unvaccinated

ABoC is reflecting growing public mood

Some people on here are deluded if they think people aren’t bothered about the prospect of lockdown to protect the unvaccinated. Why should we sacrifice if they cannot be bothered to get a vaccine?

Headingnorthwoste

Great at least they’re keeping their hatred private and contained.

@userperuser oh no, it’s not hatred at all. People are just perplexed and feel sad for anyone who’s been taken in by conspiracy theories. It’s time for government to coerce action if they won’t do it for themselves and the wider public. Shocking really when you think it’s all free. I knew of one unvaxxed heathy 30 something who ended up in ICU. I can’t understand why anyone would take that risk.