Govt plans re unvaccinated feels like a change is afoot

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Anyone noticed the govt and news sources seem to be covering more and more stories regarding the unvaccinated (by choice)
I feel they might be ramping up support for restrictions for unvaccinated people.
It's feel very much like propaganda and warm up the masses.
Anyone agree or noticed this in the last 3/4 days?

I think there has been increased talk about unvaccinated people, I think some of this is due to the fact that those against vaccinations have been very vocal and also due to many people having second thoughts about the booster.

I personally think people should have a choice - I dislike either side insulting the other. Some people on both sides are quite aggressive - at the end of the day it is personal choice what people decide to do.

@EmmaOvary

I don’t think anybody can dispute the vaccine works in terms of reducing instance of serious disease.

I have issues with people trying to oversell it with unnecessary bells & whistles added. I have issues with mainstream media organisations overselling it with dubious ‘90% unvaccinated in hospital’ stats.

I’m also not convinced having it reduces spread significantly at this moment, which is another ‘valid’ reason pro-vaxxers tout it.

Australia & NZ (if it ever opens properly) are clean slates in this regard, we can learn a lot from them.

I'm inclined to think, whilst not denying care, if we must ration these new drugs, those hesitant over taking new drugs won't mind being further down the list for these new treatments

No you're not 😂 No one with half a brain would truly think most people so ill as to be admitted to hospital would deny treatment. You just think it makes you sound clever. It doesn't.

I'm one of the awful unvaccinated because I don't feel it's necessary for me (yes, yes, unpopular, I'm uneducated, stupid, selfish, save your breath if you're thinking it because I've heard it all and the insults generally being slung don't affect me).

However if I was unlucky enough to be so severely ill with it I needed to be hospitalised then obviously treatment is necessary. And no, I wouldn't decline treatment as I suspect (and you yourself clearly do too) most others wouldn't. Regardless of whether they're vaccinated or not.

@StarryNightSky26 it wouldn't be a case of you being "unlucky" to get severely ill. Your choice not to get vaccinated makes that significantly more probable. You do have a choice not to get vaccinated, but your choice has potentially serious consequences and not just for yourself but for the medical staff who may have to treat you and for the sick people who may not get a hospital bed because you've taken one unnecessarily or those whose treatment is delayed or unavailable because you and others like you are using NHS resources.

I’m unvaccinated and had covid in September. I felt grim for a week, then absolutely fine again, much the same as everyone else I know, vaccinated or not. So now I have a good dose of natural immunity which studies show is likely to be more helpful than umpteen jabs. Two years in and I’m still yet to know or even know of anyone who has become seriously ill. I will take my chances and if that means I’m not allowed in certain places I’m absolutely fine with that.

@BlueLines81 “ your choice has potentially serious consequences and not just for yourself but for the medical staff who may have to treat you and for the sick people who may not get a hospital bed because you've taken one unnecessarily or those whose treatment is delayed or unavailable because you and others like you are using NHS resources”. Quoting from PP as it applies to you too.

There is an opportunity cost of treating an unvaccinated person in ICU. To staff and to patients (particularly elective care, ie people waiting for critical but not emergency surgery).

[quote Cindercat]**@StarryNightSky26* it wouldn't be a case of you being "unlucky" to get severely ill. Your choice* not to get vaccinated makes that significantly more probable. You do have a choice not to get vaccinated, but your choice has potentially serious consequences and not just for yourself but for the medical staff who may have to treat you and for the sick people who may not get a hospital bed because you've taken one unnecessarily or those whose treatment is delayed or unavailable because you and others like you are using NHS resources.[/quote]
‘Significantly more probable’? You have absolutely no idea what her age or health or BMI is so you have no idea what her risk of hospitalisation is or how much the vaccine would reduce it.

Honestly, the way people are going on here you would think that covid = hospital for the vast majority of people, never mind younger, otherwise healthy people.

@Dollymantra I think I also had covid in April 2020 before community testing (paramedic was certain I had it). Same story there, didn’t feel too special for a week then fine again. Had far worse colds.

So that’s me having had covid twice, cured with a bit of Netflix and a couple of paracetamol. It’s a bit of a leap to assume that if I get it again I’ll be in ICU.

Ps the paramedic was because 111 insisted on sending an ambulance to anyone with symptoms back then, not because I actually needed one.

it wouldn't be a case of you being "unlucky" to get severely ill

Don't be so ridiculous.

The majority of people don't get severely ill. Those that do are usually the elderly or those with additional underlying medical issues.

I'm 35, no underlying medical issues, non smoker and generally very healthy. Of course I would have to be very unlucky to be hospitalised with covid, the % chance of it happening to someone who fits my profile is absolutely miniscule.

I'm not naiive enough to think it's impossible but I'm fairly comfortable with my level of risk in being unvaccinated.

@Flapjacker48

Good, the state should make life as inconvenient as possible for those who choose not to have the vaccination.

Really? I'm not anti vax but this is really becoming insane now. Do people really believe that a 3rd Jab is going to help better than the first or the second? Insanity.

The issue is not those who are low risk but there are many who have high risk and still refuse to vaccinate and how do you distinguish who might get I'll? I am in the EU and you have to show a covid pass to eat in a restaurant etc - you show it and they scan it then show ID. I am afraid I don't think there is any other way around this - I think if you choose not to vaccinate there needs to be some repercussions to that

Yes, changes afoot methinks.

Not sure how much longer the government can justify locking us down to protect the unvaccinated. It’s not ethical is it?

@StarryNightSky26

it wouldn't be a case of you being "unlucky" to get severely ill

Don't be so ridiculous.

The majority of people don't get severely ill. Those that do are usually the elderly or those with additional underlying medical issues.

I'm 35, no underlying medical issues, non smoker and generally very healthy. Of course I would have to be very unlucky to be hospitalised with covid, the % chance of it happening to someone who fits my profile is absolutely miniscule.

I'm not naiive enough to think it's impossible but I'm fairly comfortable with my level of risk in being unvaccinated.

That's your level of risk for YOU. And that's fine, you shouldn't have to have a medical procedure without your consent. However without vaccination, you are much more likely to catch covid if you are exposed to it - so the more unvaccinated people we have, the more people catching and passing it on, including to the vulnerable as well as to people who may not end up in hospital but will get ill and end up causing the staff absence issues we're seeing.

So in a situation right now, when it's doubling in days, people who choose not to vaccinate shouldn't also be able to choose to use public transport, head into Westfield for a last minute Christmas shop, or infect colleagues and customers at work.

Not sure how much longer the government can justify locking us down to protect the unvaccinated. It’s not ethical is it?

They aren’t doing this. The majority of unvaccinated people are young and low risk.

@OverTheRubicon

Do you want to include double vaccinated people in those restrictions given the latest report from Imperial?

“Depending on the estimates used for vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic infection from the Delta variant, this translates into vaccine effectiveness estimates against symptomatic Omicron infection of between 0% and 20% after two doses, and between 55% and 80% after a booster dose. Similar estimates were obtained using genotype data, albeit with greater uncertainty.”

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/omicron-largely-evades-immunity-from-past/

It will be interesting to see how the changes to the isolation period play out.
In theory, the vaccine should lower the length of time a patient is contagious - which in theory should show up on a lateral flow test.

Be interesting to see the results of this.

@bumbleymummy but they are- the majority in ICU beds are unvaccinated. If everyone gets vaccinated NHS will cope and we won’t have restrictions.

The public are losing patience with the unvaccinated now.

[quote bumbleymummy]@OverTheRubicon

Do you want to include double vaccinated people in those restrictions given the latest report from Imperial?

“Depending on the estimates used for vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic infection from the Delta variant, this translates into vaccine effectiveness estimates against symptomatic Omicron infection of between 0% and 20% after two doses, and between 55% and 80% after a booster dose. Similar estimates were obtained using genotype data, albeit with greater uncertainty.”

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/omicron-largely-evades-immunity-from-past/[/quote]
That's about catching it at all - people with even one dose are still likely to get it less severely and reduce the burden on the NHS, plus double vaccinated people are only one dose away from far higher protection. And yes, in any case I would 100% prioritise those who are taking on vaccines to shorten this over those who have chosen not to.

[quote Headingnorthwoste]@bumbleymummy but they are- the majority in ICU beds are unvaccinated. If everyone gets vaccinated NHS will cope and we won’t have restrictions.

The public are losing patience with the unvaccinated now.[/quote]
There are currently 859 on mechanical ventilation across the entire country of 68 million, it is not known how many are unvaccinated as the data is not released but the link posted further up thread showed those it hospital are fairly equal vaccinated and unvaccinated.

I don’t think the public are frustrated with the unvaccinated it’s probably a few who read the gutter press.

[quote bumbleymummy]@OverTheRubicon

Do you want to include double vaccinated people in those restrictions given the latest report from Imperial?

“Depending on the estimates used for vaccine effectiveness against symptomatic infection from the Delta variant, this translates into vaccine effectiveness estimates against symptomatic Omicron infection of between 0% and 20% after two doses, and between 55% and 80% after a booster dose. Similar estimates were obtained using genotype data, albeit with greater uncertainty.”

www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/omicron-largely-evades-immunity-from-past/[/quote]
If there's any logic at all in the idea of restricting the unvaccinated, then that will have to include anyone who hasn't had a booster yet. in the longer term, we'd have to adopt the French system where vaccines/boosters have an expiry date on the vaccine pass and the pass expires if people haven't been jabbed again by that date. If I was one of the people clamouring for restrictions, I'd be questioning whether our government will be able to maintain an ongoing, reliable supply of boosters, vaccinators, premises, etc. Although if that can't be done, I'm quite sure people will be happy to accept their own lives being restricted in the interests of the greater good.

Then again, is anyone still looking for logic among the insanity and hysteria?

There are currently 859 on mechanical ventilation across the entire country of 68 million, it is not known how many are unvaccinated as the data is not released but the link posted further up thread showed those it hospital are fairly equal vaccinated and unvaccinated.

1. Mechanical ventilation is absolute end of line
2. In England, we only have around 5000 critical care beds. Even in a normal winter we can push that limit, we're already at a point that they're having to add more - but without critical care staff, it will make it hugely more dangerous if you're unlucky enough to be hit by a car, or have a loved one have a stroke this winter
3. Overall it's around 50/50 vaccinated unvaccinated for adult patients BUT given that only about 10% of the adult population remain entirely unvaccinated, this shows the much higher risk, AND the majority of vaccinated inpatients are those with underlying immune disorders or severe vulnerabilities, and it also doesn't show whether someone has had one or more doses.

Those stats still support your point

OverTheRubicon

That’s around 400 (odd) across and entire country unvaccinated who have likely paid taxes for their care, there has been ample time to increase facilities.

Another fact is that 80% in hospital both vaccinated and unvaccinated have high BMI so it would make more sense to tackle that issue.

@Tealightsandd

We should never pick and choose who gets care. We should never discriminate. Every person is an individual who deserves to have a choice.

Now this I do agree with you on. Nobody should be denied treatment.

My suggestion re the new Covid drug treatments is simply that, right now unfortunately there will be a lot of people denied access. Because we don't have nearly enough for all who will need them. Nowhere in the world does yet.

So, there will be rationing. Unfortunately. I'm inclined to think, whilst not denying care, if we must ration these new drugs, those hesitant over taking new drugs won't mind being further down the list for these new treatments. (Obviously this is separate from people unable to have vaccines for genuinely medical reasons including like Xeno severe phobia).

Many people have said they're reluctant to take the vaccine because it's a new drug. Presumably they feel the same hesitancy about the equally new treatments.

But of course I don't condone denying anyone treatment. And I really really wish we didn't have to ration any of it. I look forward to the future when there'll be more availability (worldwide).

Right. Definitely off to bed. You have a lovely day tomorrow too.

I wouldn't worry too much about the undeserving "the unvaccinated" getting treatment.

Most people do not get early treatment for covid.

Which is a state of affairs which makes me very uncomfortable.

We are pumping millions (billions?) into vaccines to prevent hospitalizations but actual treatment protocols do not appear to have been much of a priority.

And you speak of new drugs - If we are talking about preventing hospitalization (which now seems to be the main argument for multiple vaccines) I think most sensible non vulnerable people would chose monoclonal antibody treatments over unknown numbers unprecedented vaccines.

I've just been reading a paper which has made me think about just how unprecedented much of the mRNA mass vaccine programme is. It is very thought provoking.

Many aspects of Covid-19 and subsequent vaccine development are unprecedented.
1. First to use PEG (polyethylene glycol) in an injection (see text)
2. First to use mRNA vaccine technology
3. First time Moderna has brought any product to market
4. First to have public health officials telling those receiving the vaccination to expect an adverse reaction
5. First to be implemented publicly with nothing more than preliminary efficacy data
6. First vaccine to make no clear claims about reducing infections, transmissibility, or deaths
7. First coronavirus vaccine ever attempted in humans
8. First injection of genetically modified polynucleotides in the general population

ijvtpr.com/index.php/IJVTPR/article/view/23