Omg my social media feeds are going crazy!

[november90]

Literally everyone posting about refusing the boosters now after he back and forth with restrictions and the government breaking the rules etc! I can't believe it!
Anyone else seeing the same thing?
I wonder if it is like this in other countries who have reintroduced restrictions etc.

This is not my view btw, I'm happy to take my booster but obviously very annoyed with new restrictions too. So hope my sons Nativity isn't cancelled :(

@BHX3000

It matters because you shouldn't NEED a booster 12 weeks after the vaccine 12 months yes but not 12 weeks

Literally not a single other country out there has brought the minimum time between initial jabs and booster to 12 weeks. It's 5/6 months everywhere else, as a minimum. With the pass 'expiring' at either 9 or 12 months.

Nope.

America was offering boosters after 3 months.

But also @CherryBlossomAutumn is right (all her posts). The UK is a high risk country.

Many other countries followed WHO advice on sensible infection control. They took a Vaccine Plus approach. We went for Vaccine Just.

Things won't be the same forever in any case. In the future we'll have a better arsenal. Vaccines - but also more knowledge. And wider availability of the currently global supply limited treatments - the antivirals and the monclunal antibodies.

On the other hand by June 2020 antibody research estimated over 1.5 m Londoners had antibodies, yet the Delta wave swept through London last winter seemingly finding plenty of vulnerable new hosts

There are around 9 million people in London. If 1.5 million had antibodies (to a different strain than Delta), that left 7.5 million still to infect.

don't think there is a great deal of public support for mass vaccination with twice yearly or even yearly covid vaccines.

Well you think wrong. Polls, bookings, and turn out so far, have indicated strong support.

It's no surprise. Generally the majority of people do like to take precautions against life and long term health threatening illnesses. As we know by the successful annual flu vaccination programme.

@EasterIssland

We will never achieve herd immunity as long as we don’t send vaccines to other countries. We can continue jabbing the rich countries that by the time you’ve finished another variant will have emerged in a country where there the vaccination numbers are low because rich countries have hoarded the vaccines. I can get vaccinated every 3 months that immunity will wean and won’t be as good for the next variant. We’ve to accept that variants will emerge and that As long as every single person in the world has had accessed to a vaccine we won’t be over with this.

Donations would be a drop in the ocean. It's also a case of needing to put your own oxygen mask on.

The fastest way to get the whole world vaccinated is temporary patent waiver.

And actually, no, we don't have to fatalistically accept that mutation after mutation will emerge. Or at least, we can take mitigating action.

Research strongly suggests that vaccines reduce the risk of transmission. Less transmission = fewer opportunities for the virus to spread (and therefore mutate).

No. I’m not ‘against vaccines’ at all - which should be very clear when I’ve literally just written a post saying that we are very lucky to have the vaccines and they have significantly reduced serious illness/deaths. hmm

I’m not questioning the vaccines at all - I literally just used the measles vaccine as an example of what a good vaccine looks like. confused

Have you got some sort of extreme memory loss, bumbleymummy, because you have been 'questioning' vaccines and against vaccines for a good ten years on here.

Currently you are obsessively recommending the vaccines be targeted at overweight people, the implication being those who are not overweight are fine to trust their own level of risk.

You have not answered a straight question: Have you had the vaccine? (The answer is no, from your prior post on this board.)

You have not answered this: From what I remember, you are generally against vaccinations or at least "hesitant" ( MMR, HPV discussions come to mind). Out of curiosity, have you and / or your children had most of the routine vaccinations?

I feel and .

Ok, thanks for clarifying @Emilyontmoor

I hope that natural immunity is being investigated because we really don't hear much about it. Which is a bit galling for those of us who have had covid.

@Emilyontmoor @bumbleymummy

I cannot comprehend why if you lived in a time when those childhood diseases were endemic that you could even begin to question the vaccines. I was utterly shocked and horrified when those signs went up in A&E asking parents not to bring in children with symptoms and discovered there were 300 cases in the area. Utter madness.

One of my DBs had measles as a young child before he could be vaccinated. He went completely deaf in one ear as a result. He had a bionic implant a few years ago, but it didn't really work. His deafness has had a considerable impact on his life.

Many other countries followed WHO advice on sensible infection control. They took a Vaccine Plus approach. We went for Vaccine Just.

Ireland had one of the longest lockdowns and restrictions, masks everywhere, vaccine passports since the summer and now, due to a surge in cases/hospitalisations they are having to increase restrictions again.

@Tealightsandd

don't think there is a great deal of public support for mass vaccination with twice yearly or even yearly covid vaccines.

Well you think wrong. Polls, bookings, and turn out so far, have indicated strong support.

It's no surprise. Generally the majority of people do like to take precautions against life and long term health threatening illnesses. As we know by the successful annual flu vaccination programme.

Yougov?

I think YouGov is one, yes. But others too. And we don't need polls to see the enthusiasm amongst the majority to take mitigating action to protect themselves and others (and the economy).

@milkyaqua my memory is fine thanks. What about yours? You’re asking questions I’ve already told you the answer to and, despite being corrected multiple times, are still making silly accusations and misrepresenting what I’ve said about trying to increase the vaccine uptake in certain high risk groups (BMI). I’m not going to waste my time engaging with you. You resort to insults and childish comments and I much prefer intelligent, data-based discussion and debate. Have a nice evening :)

I'm sorry to hear that about your DB @dishhh

@Tealightsandd I think there were some big question marks raised about the reliability of that recent yougov poll on restrictions - selective reporting iirc.

You haven't answered any of those questions, and you certainly haven't told the answer to me, bumbleymummy. Truth isn't particularly important to you, apparently.

tulips27

A lot will be paid troll farms in Russia/similar who have been trying to undermine our efforts all along.

Sounds crazy but I agree. There is evidence that this is going despite it sounding more like a conspiracy than the Covid-denying theories.

@user333334

Thank you for sharing your information. I hope you and your DH are both well and protected.

Although antibody info is interesting it doesn't give us the full picture on immunity. I hope there are investigations being made into the full picture. I'm concerned that it may fall by the wayside as vaccines seem to be dominating the interest right now.

Millions of people have had covid and I think it is vital that we try to understand their status, both for them as individuals and for their role in herd immunity.

I keep hearing people on MN say they or someone they know was reinfected yet reinfection rates seem to be very low in the data.

I had another look for information and this link pretty much sums up where I am right now.

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext

Beachcomber I think the issue is that anti vaxxers and the vaccine sceptical seem quick to jump to align with the argument that all scientists are somehow in league with a big bad something that is profiting from the pandemic by pumping us with vaccines and ignoring natural immunity and natural ways of bolstering it for which they claim magical properties (without any scientific basis ). I am not saying everyone is arguing every part of that but it is a body of thinking that people embrace elements of. At its worst it is dangerous and a lot of it is stupid. As someone who has had Cancer I have had many years to get to know that line of thinking in that context too (some of the same people)

I know scientists working in the charitable sector and I know they are eager to embrace any research into ways we can respond to this virus including understanding the nature of immunity which is why there have been lots of trials carrying out antibody testing almost from day 1. By no means is all research focused on vaccines though the government’s strategy obviously is since they are not prepared to countenance other strategies (until it is too late) But that is the politicians not the scientists.

I just would like to see some information on natural immunity that is useful and not politisized. I am fairly vaccine sceptical myself (for myself) as I've had covid. I live in a country which assumes a natural immunity of 6 months but after that pressure will be put on me via covid passes to be vaccinated. I don't think that pressure is based on anything like comprehensive science.

Also if countries are going to start mandating vaccines with a blanket policy which includes the recovered, they should really have a scientific reason for doing so.

I would also like to see more research on natural immunity and not just antibodies.

If t-cells from SARS lasted 17 years and counting then are we saying t-cells from Covid are non existent? We know this isn’t true so why can’t we get the info on this? Antibodies will disappear they do. Scientists know this. They know our immune systems are far more complicated than that.
Maybe the info is out there and it doesn’t make for a sensationalist article in the news.

Beachcomber By what metric or measurement are you going to determine when the science is comprehensive enough?! And what are your qualifications for determining that?

No scientist would ever declare certainty. Science is based on the philosophical assumption that nothing is 100% certain. Even the theory of evolution is still a theory. Science by its very nature is assembling the evidence to support theories that make sense out of the uncertainty and presenting it for peer review. Of course it is particularly dealing with uncertainty when it is a virus that has only been studied for two years but immunity has been studied a lot longer than that in relation to other diseases and it’s fair to say that as much as is known a lot is still unknown - or we would have cured Cancer.

Immunity is also very individual

So into that arena of uncertainty step the vaccine sceptics demanding certainty.

However why do you think that governments around the world in different political systems and cultures have arrived at that six month figure if it isn’t based on scientific consensus based on the available evidence?

And why would you not take a vaccine that has been through the usual trials to determine safety and has been shown to boost your natural immunity and to protect you and others? What is definitely uncertain is whether you as an individual will still have Covid antibodies after six months after you had Covid. I know I had the antibodies for over six months but the person who gave me Covid hung on to them even longer because their body responded differently to mine. Science has arrived at the judgement that a safe assumption for assessing the immunity if the majority post Covid is six months. Perhaps the research they are carrying out will change that at a later date but we are dealing with a pandemic that has killed millions and could kill millions more if we don’t act on what we already know.

Delatron Who said it was T cells driving that reaction? It certainly does not say that in the article, it does say the trial participants had few or no Covid antibodies prior to vaccination but that vaccination prompted their bodies to develop powerful ones that were effective against a range of Coronaviruses but they don’t know why?

Do I assume you subscribe to the anti vaxx magical thinking about T cells as the solution to the pandemic?

@Emilyontmoor what on earth are you on about?

I’m very pro vaccine! I’ve had both doses and and just brought my booster forward.

What a strange post. I’m just interested in the science behind immune response that’s all. As surely this will shape out how this pandemic pans out? Why can’t I ask questions about t-cells without being accused of being anti-vax?

Honestly this board gets stranger and more aggressive by the day! I was actually enjoying your posts about the antibody studies.

@Emilyontmoor Hiqa advised NPHET (Ireland) to extend presumptive immunity to 9 months from 6 last summer, based on the data. Switzerland have recently extended presumptive immunity to 12 months.

[quote Delatron]@Emilyontmoor what on earth are you on about?

I’m very pro vaccine! I’ve had both doses and and just brought my booster forward.

What a strange post. I’m just interested in the science behind immune response that’s all. As surely this will shape out how this pandemic pans out? Why can’t I ask questions about t-cells without being accused of being anti-vax?

Honestly this board gets stranger and more aggressive by the day! I was actually enjoying your posts about the antibody studies.[/quote]
I’m pro vaccine too and think it’s worth asking about

At a basic level we can’t make any conclusions on long term immunity can we? Because this virus has only been around for 2 years. So the reason for the 6 months revised to 9 then to 12 is because that’s the time from infection/vaccine.

Much like only recently we could conclude t-cells from SARS lasted 17 years. Because that’s how long ago SARS was.

So is it inaccurate to say antibodies only last 6 months? Are we only claiming that because that’s the time frame we’re working from? And we know antibodies wane but t-cells less so. We also know that some people produce t-cells then fight off the virus without even producing antibodies. Yet still they have protection.

People should be able to discuss immunity (from both vaccine and natural infection) without being accused of being anti-vax.