Omg my social media feeds are going crazy!

[november90]

Literally everyone posting about refusing the boosters now after he back and forth with restrictions and the government breaking the rules etc! I can't believe it!
Anyone else seeing the same thing?
I wonder if it is like this in other countries who have reintroduced restrictions etc.

This is not my view btw, I'm happy to take my booster but obviously very annoyed with new restrictions too. So hope my sons Nativity isn't cancelled :(

@YankeeinKingArthursCourt

@*@Rocaille*, thanks. Hep B is a blood borne virus, so a very limited transmission possibility ( sex, drug use, blood transfusion). What other air borne virus vaccines have a greater efficacy?

The measles vaccine.>95% effective against serious illness and lifelong.

Bumbley I have already explained that the bodies natural response to measles is to give you almost total lifelong immunity (although it might have left you with lifelong susceptibility to respiratory illness, blindness or even kill you - it killed twice as many children as polio ). Why do you think all the unvaccinated people who grew up in the 50s and 60s don’t catch measles when outbreaks occur amongst the children of anti vaxxers? It is a live virus which provokes that immune response by exposing the body to small doses of virus.

The antibodies you develop in response to Covid do not last a lifetime, or even in most cases a year.

Honestly it does your arguments no favours when you do not apply basic common knowledge.

Emilyontmoor thank you for your patient, detailed and above all rational and scientific explanation. You are heroically fighting a tide of nonsense.

Hi Emily - see the post I quoted ^^ She asked ‘what other air borne virus vaccines have greater efficacy’. I answered.

Not trying to make an ‘argument’. Just answering a question. Hth.

(And btw having lower levels of antibodies after a certain period doesn’t mean that you aren’t immune.)

Doesn’t necessarily* mean that you’re not immune.

Thank you pointy I should point out though that not all over 60s did manage to catch the full range of childhood diseases that nobody has any excuse to be leaving their children vulnerable to today by not vaccinating them. So some will be vulnerable.

I managed not to catch those other parts of the MMR jab until my twenties, German measles and mumps with the obvious risk to those around me. Thankfully my male friends from that time have all gone on to have children but it could have been different…..

We are incredibly lucky that they developed a vaccine that actually improved on the body’s response to Covid ie produced more antibodies.

“ In contrast to circulating antibodies, memory B cells are responsible for rapid recall responses, and the number of cells in this compartment is relatively stable over the first 5–6 months after mRNA vaccination or natural infection. In both cases, memory B cells continue to evolve, as evidenced by increasing levels of somatic mutation and emergence of unique clones.

The memory response would be expected to protect individuals who experience breakthrough infection from developing serious disease. Both natural infection and mRNA vaccination produce memory antibodies that evolve increased affinity. However, vaccine-elicited memory monoclonal antibodies show more modest neutralizing potency and breadth than those that develop after natural infection. Notably, the difference between the memory compartments that develop in response to natural infection versus mRNA vaccination reported above is consistent with the higher level of protection from variants conferred by natural infection”

www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04060-7

I caught mumps before my full course of vaccinations were completed (I'm 53) and had whooping cough too even though vaccinated. Mumps was pretty bad according to my mum, whooping cough I had a very mild dose.

Much better than it would have been without the vaccines. My DC have had all their jabs - COVID included because they're all over 18. Not just because they want to protect themselves but because they understand their responsibilities towards the society they live in.

Bloody hell Bumbley . I was highlighting a trial that showed that the vaccines boosted the antibodies of several hundred participants in a trial beyond what they were to start with whether they had existing Covid antibodies or not. I can assure you family member is extremely grateful for the vaccine even though they already had a level of antibodies greater than most of the participants in the trial, and their body clearly is good at hanging on to their antibodies, a miracle given their lifestyle . They believe that even more antibodies to protect them from infection or serious illness can only be a good thing, but then they are a scientist which quite clearly you are not!

@pointythings the mumps vaccine want introduced until 1988. You’re older than me and it wasn’t wasn’t available when I was a child. I had all the childhood illnesses that now routinely vaccinate against - measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough.

I’m very pleased for them. I was simply highlighting why the general statement you made was incorrect. And don’t get me wrong, we are very lucky to have the vaccines and they have significantly reduced serious illness/deaths but if you read that paper in full you’ll see that even though there are higher levels of antibodies from the vaccine in the early stages, immunity after infection offers broader protection which is quite useful irt new variants - possibly why SA aren’t faring too badly despite their low vaccination rate.

And I am a scientist actually (MSc and PhD) :)

1987 in the Netherlands, but you're right. Still didn't enjoy the mumps though. And measles is in a different league in terms of the risks of complications so I hope you aren't saying 'well, in my day we had measles and we were all alright' because no, people weren't.

Pointy Yes and those individuals who did not catch those illnesses in childhood did get them more severely as adults. Although mumps didn’t put me in hospital (but obviously would have had far more serious implications for male friends) and childhood measles did.

My Mum had an anti vaxxer ( her chiropodist!) tell her that generation of parents had measles parties to make sure their children had lifelong immunity. She gave him it with both barrels obviously having had two children hospitalised with it, and knowing the worse consequences for other families, and threw in her best friend at primary school who disappeared one day, a victim of diphtheria. Of course we did have German measles parties but that was because it was vital to make sure we did not catch it as pregnant adults, and that we did not expose our friend’s pregnant mothers. Every community had examples of the consequences.

Just imagine if these illnesses had been like Covid as Bumbley seems to think and you could have been reinfected many more times in our lifetimes, the cost in suffering, disability and death, and to the NHS. No less the long term implications of not controlling Covid. Long Covid has involved an MRI, GP and ENT consultant, as a result of one asymptomatic infection as it is.

And all to tell me that Covid has done something to my brain / ear cartilage but they don’t understand what, let alone, how to treat it.

@bumbleymummy

The mumps vaccine has been available since 1967. Prior to this, it was one of the leading causes of deafness in children.
MMR vaccine available in 1971.

From what I remember, you are generally against vaccinations or at least "hesitant" ( MMR, HPV discussions come to mind). Out of curiosity, have you and / or your children had most of the routine vaccinations?

@pointythings

1987 in the Netherlands, but you're right. Still didn't enjoy the mumps though. And measles is in a different league in terms of the risks of complications so I hope you aren't saying 'well, in my day we had measles and we were all alright' because no, people weren't.

No, I’m not saying that. Just probably giving away my age a bit

Just imagine if these illnesses had been like Covid as Bumbley seems to think and you could have been reinfected many more times in our lifetimes

What?

@YankeeinKingArthursCourt as I said above, it wasn’t introduced into the routine schedule in the U.K. until 1988 as part of the mmr vaccine. You can google it if you don’t believe me.

No. I’m not ‘against vaccines’ at all - which should be very clear when I’ve literally just written a post saying that we are very lucky to have the vaccines and they have significantly reduced serious illness/deaths.

@BHX3000

It matters because you shouldn't NEED a booster 12 weeks after the vaccine 12 months yes but not 12 weeks

Literally not a single other country out there has brought the minimum time between initial jabs and booster to 12 weeks. It's 5/6 months everywhere else, as a minimum. With the pass 'expiring' at either 9 or 12 months.

I think it’s because England really needs the boosters to fight against omicron, as it has had very high levels of cases now for some months, and is not doing that much else mitigation wise.

So they are using boosters as one of the main ‘weapons’ I guess.

You are right we shouldn’t need boosters every 12 weeks. And for England to be sustainable in the future it’s going to have to probably bring in an acceptance of some measures such as masks on public transport longer term - otherwise there will be an over-reliance on boosters.

Other countries, have more mitigations and not quite such sustained high rates, so are not relying quite so heavily on boosters - it will be 6 monthly booster at present.

Bumbley You gave the measles vaccine as an example in support of the argument that the Covid vaccine was not good enough and could be better. The implication is that you consider Measles, Mumps and Rubella were similar in nature to Covid. In reality it is much easier to provoke the bodies ability to produce antibodies that give lifelong immunity. The transient nature of Covid immunity is leading to repeat infections and long term consequences that we didn’t see with MMR but if they really were comparable we would have done. That is why we should be doing all we can to boost immunity to avoid those consequences for society.

I cannot comprehend why if you lived in a time when those childhood diseases were endemic that you could even begin to question the vaccines. I was utterly shocked and horrified when those signs went up in A&E asking parents not to bring in children with symptoms and discovered there were 300 cases in the area. Utter madness.

Whatever your MA and PhD are in in it ain’t epidemiology or virology. It takes all sorts though. We even have an esteemed plant biologist locally who spends his spare time arguing we are all descended from Adam and Eve and wanted to set up a free school to promote his (also misogynist homophobic and ideology

We are incredibly lucky that they developed a vaccine that actually improved on the body’s response to Covid ie produced more antibodies.

@Emilyontmoor

Are you saying here that the vaccines protect better than natural immunity? Or that a vaccine after infection reboosts immunity?

Do you think that natural immunity is boosted if a recovered person comes back into contact with the wild virus? Like happens with chicken pox for example?

I'm interested in this as I have had covid and have been a contact case several times since having it and I wonder if "natural boosting" is a thing and if anyone is studying it.

I'm sorry to hear that you have been left with a health issue as a result of covid.

You gave the measles vaccine as an example in support of the argument that the Covid vaccine was not good enough and could be better.

I gave the measles vaccine as an example of a vaccine that is more effective at protecting against airborne viruses as a pp asked. It provides over 95% protection against serious illness and is lifelong. I did explain that in the post straight after where you challenged me before so I’m not sure why you’re still continuing with your misguided opinion.

And fwiw reinfections from cv are rare and more severe reinfections are even rarer. (ONS)

I’m not questioning the vaccines at all - I literally just used the measles vaccine as an example of what a good vaccine looks like.

I'm getting my booster, and devising my own measures regarding safety - the government can f right off if they think I'm going to listen to a word they say though.

The study is of vaccine efficacy so I am saying the vaccine boosts immunity. I would assume someone is looking at what happens with subsequent exposure to the actual virus. Of course though you can catch it on subsequent exposure, whereas with Chicken Pox that rarely happens. I am sure they are looking into all the ways that immunity gets boosted as they have mentioned the Singapore study which shows that those exposed to SARS had this super response to the Covid vaccine, and gained protection to other Coronaviruses, particularly interesting because whatever is being boosted will have lingered 17 years. asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/COVID-vaccines/Singapore-SARS-survivors-yield-hope-for-COVID-super-vaccine

Of course relatively few people were diagnosed with SARS but they discovered after ten years of research that it originated in Guangdong , not Vietnam where the first cases were, or Beijing where most cases were, in November 2002 (main outbreak was March 2003) and that many more people may have experienced mild illness (the symptoms of which were common but atypical in that diarrhoea was followed by a chest infection.)

On the other hand by June 2020 antibody research estimated over 1.5 m Londoners had antibodies, yet the Delta wave swept through London last winter seemingly finding plenty of vulnerable new hosts, some who had had it, and some boroughs now have very high case rates (over 1000 per 100k mostly in unvaccinated young but then anecdotally it was going round schools in March 2020 bought back by pupils who had been skiing at half term). It is really hard to see how the bigger is finding anyone new to infect if there is any long lasting immunity that can be boosted without vaccines?

However it is interesting I agree, and clearly a lot still to be understood.