Omg my social media feeds are going crazy!

[november90]

Literally everyone posting about refusing the boosters now after he back and forth with restrictions and the government breaking the rules etc! I can't believe it!
Anyone else seeing the same thing?
I wonder if it is like this in other countries who have reintroduced restrictions etc.

This is not my view btw, I'm happy to take my booster but obviously very annoyed with new restrictions too. So hope my sons Nativity isn't cancelled :(

Quite a few people are posting that they have felt really grotty after their boosters but I've not seen anyone post that they are not going ahead with theirs. We seem to be way behind in our area - lots of people who are in their early 40s had theirs, yet my DH is in his late 50s and hasn't had his yet.

@Rocaille

In US, Covid deaths in 2020 vs Covid deaths in 2021, not a comparison with now vs. the last peak in January.

Rates of UK Covid hospitalisation is HIGHER for the unvaccinated. Unvaccinated population is about 18% of eligible population, but makes up 40% of hospitalisations. Yes, this is undoubtedly true. But still we are seeing a shockingly high number of vaccinated people being hospitalised with Covid.

Learn how to read and use statistics.

Again @Rocaille , you are incorrect. A year ago US daily deaths were close to 3,000, now it's about a third of that. US vaccination program started in earnest after January, deaths dropped dramatically after this. Where are you getting your data from?

UK hospitalisation numbers are lower now than they were prior to vaccinations. Unvaccinated people are more than 2 x as likely to be hospitalised as compared with vaccinated people. Your claims of "shockingly high numbers" is irrelevant and anecdotal.

Again, where are you getting your data from?

Thanks for the infographic, @RedToothBrush. What it shows is not in dispute here, as far as I know. The discussion we're having centres upon whether or not the rate of breakthrough infection we see with these Covid vaccines is acceptable or not. I say the rate of breakthrough is unacceptably high and that the current crop of Covid vaccines are inadequate to meet the challenges of the pandemic; others disagree and say that the vaccination has proved to be effective, more effective in fact that other vaccines that have been widely used in this country for many years.

@Rocaille

Thanks for the infographic, *@RedToothBrush*. What it shows is not in dispute here, as far as I know. The discussion we're having centres upon whether or not the rate of breakthrough infection we see with these Covid vaccines is acceptable or not. I say the rate of breakthrough is unacceptably high and that the current crop of Covid vaccines are inadequate to meet the challenges of the pandemic; others disagree and say that the vaccination has proved to be effective, more effective in fact that other vaccines that have been widely used in this country for many years.

'Unacceptably high'

And?

What the fuck do you expect anyone to do about it?

No vaccine is 100% effective because of non vaccine related reasons.

You can't just improve vaccinations like that. The comorbity is the issue. Thats an issue for wider public health.

Stuff like free universal health care for all would be a starter. I don't see America rushing towards that. Nor getting off their arses and walking instead of using the car all the time. Or generally eating less.

Easier to blame vaccines for failing, rather than people either not able to or not willing to look after their general health better.

'Unacceptable'

Best legislate for it then.

What are you proposing?

What measures do you think the governments need to take to enforce better vaccine effectiveness?

People are dying to hear.

We could start by, as discussed earlier, reviewing vaccine purchase contracts so that the vaccines we acquire in future could be used for research purposes as well as therapeutic.

@Rocaille

We could start by, as discussed earlier, reviewing vaccine purchase contracts so that the vaccines we acquire in future could be used for research purposes as well as therapeutic.

In what way do you think vaccines are not being used enough for research purposes?

Its only one of the biggest areas of research in the last 80 years.

The comorbity is the issue. Thats an issue for wider public health. Yes, I largely agree with this. We're quite a sick population, even without bringing Covid into the equation. I'd like so see more support for people to improve their underlying health and resistance to disease. This would help to plug the gap between the vaccines we have now and any improved versions which may eventually come down the line.

In what way do you think vaccines are not being used enough for research purposes? This article, kindly posted upthread by another user, will explain:
www.statnews.com/2021/09/07/cepi-warns-of-major-hurdle-to-developing-new-covid-19-vaccines-boosters/

Signing off now. Can't stay all day on Mumsnet!!

The unvaccinated (who are medically able to) getting vaccinated now would plug the gap more effectively.

@Rocaille, you seem to be back tracking away from your assertions about UK & US hospital/ death rates now. Interesting.

You also asserted that "an effective vaccine would completely eliminate infection, transmission, disease & death...". Again, what data or evidence do you have of other virus vaccines that do this?

Annual flu ( another mutating coronavirus) vaccine efficacy is between 40 - 60% . Covid vaccines are between 90 - 60% effective.

What other vaccines can you name that are more effective?

@YankeeinKingArthursCourt, yes I am backing away from this discussion because I've got lots of work to do this afternoon!

What other vaccines can you name that are more effective?
Hep B vaccine: 3 doses for lifetime protection. 90%+ effective.

Right, I really am going now!!

@YankeeinKingArthursCourt flu isn’t a coronavirus.

The point was that vaccine's for Covid-19 are exceeding the usual expected levels of the best years of the annual flu vaccines.

People said here in 2020 that there was no way they would manage to create a vaccine for Covid as there had never been a coronavirus vaccine... And yet they did, and multiple varieties. That it is as effective as it is/can be is amazing.

Rocaille Perhaps you should take some time to actually research the research that is going on into vaccines.

The Covid vaccines we have are incredibly effective at generating antibodies, but as with the antibodies we develop when we get Covid, they wane over time. That is the nature of the bodies response to this novel coronavirus. In addition it is a virus that mutates like flu so the vaccines will have to be adapted like the flu vaccine. We are incredibly lucky that they developed a vaccine that actually improved on the body’s response to Covid ie produced more antibodies.

With other vaccines eg Measles the body’s response to illness is in the vast majority of cases to develop lifelong immunity, the reason our older generations who were never vaccinated are not succumbing to measles when as a result of idiot anti vaxxers we are getting breakouts in schools (300 cases in three local schools meant our local A&E had to put up signs telling those same idiots not to bring children with symptoms into the waiting room) . Therefore those vaccines also give lifelong immunity.

There are vaccines being developed all the time. We already have one of the world’s centres for flu vaccine research. Linked to that is another vaccine candidate being developed at Imperial College that has potential to bring many benefits not just in terms of protecting against Covid but also other diseases such as Ebola and even Cancer. It requires very low diesels which obviously will have benefits in terms of the cost and rapidity of manufacture. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.imperial.ac.uk/news/222553/self-amplifying-rna-covid-19-vaccine-technology-safe/amp/
That is just one of the advances in vaccine technology that is happening.

This sort of research is an amazing achievement in the part of humankind when only 2 years ago we were without any defence against this virus. Personally I am very thankful. I had Covid in March 2020, thankfully asymptomatically but it has left me with crippling bouts of neuropathic ear pain diagnosed as long Covid. I hung on to my antibodies for at least a year (I am part of a trial into why some people get mild or severe disease) but they were gone by the time I was vaccinated. Another family member in another trial who gave me Covid had antibodies in May 2021 when the vaccines boosted them to the highest level of anyone in the trial so in their case the vaccine was incredibly effective. We don’t know why except that we were all exposed to SARS in 2003 including one family member having mild symptoms though not diagnosed. So every individual is different and the scientists are learning all the time how to provoke a better response to vaccines. In the meantime I will stick with the boosters to protect me against what can be a really nasty virus both short and long term.

@@Rocaille, thanks. Hep B is a blood borne virus, so a very limited transmission possibility ( sex, drug use, blood transfusion). What other air borne virus vaccines have a greater efficacy?

Doses not diesels!

I would also add that the scale of research is like nothing I have experienced in my lifetime. I know so many people involved in the various studies and trials.

@Emilyontmoor In your trial are they studying T cells as well?

@Rocaille

In what way do you think vaccines are not being used enough for research purposes? This article, kindly posted upthread by another user, will explain: www.statnews.com/2021/09/07/cepi-warns-of-major-hurdle-to-developing-new-covid-19-vaccines-boosters/

Signing off now. Can't stay all day on Mumsnet!!

I think some one is confusing politics with medicine and science.

Not all contracts are the same. Some states have actively been involved and invested in vaccine research and development in return for better ts and cs and quicker supply.

I think its contentious at best to suggest we would have more effective vaccines available particularly for a variant only discovered in the past 30 days on the back of this. (Consider vaccine espionage in part of this equation. Sputnik is supposed to have been developed off the back of spying. What do you think happens at secret labs that specialise in biological threats?)

Increasing vaccine uptake is a far better investment in time and money in terms of effectiveness.

Clearly there is a big pharma agenda you've got going on - which I don't disagree with on a lot of levels, but on this one, I think you are firmly fixatated on the wrong issue and barrier.

howdiditcome In my trial no, since it is mainly focused on identifying SNPs on DNA that predict mild or severe disease (and has already identified some) and the antibody testing is incidental. In the large trial on vaccine response my family members is part of, yes. There is actually a big variation in individual antibody and T cell response to both infection and vaccine but in all cases the vaccine increases the level of antibodies, and does so to the original wild type and alpha, beta and delta. Obviously most participants have not yet had boosters or exposure to Omichron.

@Emilyontmoor thanks I find it all very interesting

I'm not having a booster at present as I'm still unwell from the second jab back in July and I don't think my body could cope another vaccination right now whilst I'm still not well. 3 jabs in 10 months is a lot for the body to process (yes I know Covid is too!).

It matters because you shouldn't NEED a booster 12 weeks after the vaccine 12 months yes but not 12 weeks

Literally not a single other country out there has brought the minimum time between initial jabs and booster to 12 weeks. It's 5/6 months everywhere else, as a minimum. With the pass 'expiring' at either 9 or 12 months.

Red Clearly there is a big pharma agenda you've got going on - which I don't disagree with on a lot of levels, but on this one, I think you are firmly fixatated on the wrong issue and barrier. I actually passionately support the Breast Cancer Action anti pharma campaign www.bcaction.org/issues-of-breast-cancer-screening-treatment-and-diagnosis/treatment/ as a result of my own treatment being dictated by the big pharma agenda which resisted cheaper more effective and more humane hormone treatment (which are now the treatment protocols). I can well understand someone working in the NHS having encountered other examples. However to extend that to what is going on in the response to Covid is very wrong headed and even downright obnoxious when you look at what our Scientists, many working in the public / charitable sector, have achieved in such a short time. Knowing how so many have sacrificed so much in the past two years, purely motivated by using their skills and knowledge to make a difference (and not in a nationalist context either but beyond our borders - the imperial project is very much motivated by delivering a cheaper more effective vaccine to benefit the third world)

It reminds me of those tiger parents who keep their children up all hours studying and then tell them off for missing 100% by 1%.