90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@bumbleymummy

I think this one got called out pretty quick - based on ‘latest available figures’ which were July.

Yes it called out quick that hospitals are chocca with unvaccinated fuckwits.

Vaccine Passports might concentrate anti-vaxxers minds a bit more. If they can’t get into pubs, clubs, non-essential shops or go on holiday, maybe they’ll feel a bit more compliant?

Germany has a very cautious approach regarding imposing on civil liberties due to their past history. There’s no school uniforms, no OTT health & Safety dictats yet even they have had a strict no masks = no public transport travel/entry into shops etc and have brought in vaccine passports. The anti-vaxxers there (of which there are plenty ) are going to have to think what they’re prepared to not be able to do unless they get jabbed.

I have 2 friends who’s kids are ICU doctors/anaesthetists and they are saying exactly what the posters on here who work in ICU are saying. They have patients who have been in their units for weeks/months. They are mainly unvaccinated. They are hanging on and rarely improve enough to leave. So their beds only become free if they die or if they are lucky enough to be able to get off ventilation. They say most normal ICU stays are a few days. Some are longer but very few are normally weeks/months. But this has changed completely since Covid.

At one point last year one friend said her son was told that if he or the rest of the staff testest positive for covid as long as they felt well enough to come in because the unit would be unsafe if they took time off. I was so shocked when I heard that. It’s the staffing that seems to be one of the major issue. Throwing billions at unworkable measures such as nightingale hospitals won’t have helped the financial situation either. Neither will the loss of all the EU nationals who have returned home/can no longer work here either.

@BitterPeach
Well, if circa 85%+ of UK adults are double dosed but 65% of hospital admissions are now of those who are double dosed - that unfortunately seems to confirm to me that the vaccine really isn’t that effective, and/or rapidly loses its effectiveness in a matter of months.

I mean, clearly the stats still strongly suggest it’s better to have it than not. But at what people did people accept that something with such a sporadic rate of effectiveness qualifies as “a Vaccine”. We wouldn’t accept such minimal effectiveness in other vaccines. It does kind of emphasise the reality that the vaccines were rush jobs - and that does raise further questions about just how rushed they were in other aspects - claims about Pfizer employees ignoring problematic data in the rush to get authorised etc.

@pianolessons1 children aren’t the ones who need protected. They’re the lowest risk group. Age, obesity and underlying conditions are the biggest risk factors.

@Tranquilitybasehotelandcasino

Do people not understand that a lot of the other health issues that puts people in need of an ICU bed might also be as a result of poor/selfish decisions too? Lots of research to say that cancers can be prevented by health diets and looking after yourself or at least the risk lessened. Cardiovascular diseases can also be as a result of poor lifestyle choices. Yet we’re ok to treat them when they need an ICU bed. My mother in law was double jabbed and died of covid. ICU staff presumably would have felt she deserved their help and bed but she had been severely overweight all her life and a heavy smoker for a lot fo years. She developed kidney failure, diabetes and other issues as a result of her poor choices and ultimately, this is what put her in ICU, not just the COVID.

What I think is that we’ve treated people for years when they perhaps didn’t deserve it, when they’ve perhaps made bad decisions that caused their poor health. Health professionals are supposed to care and if you cannot just care without judgement, maybe you’re in the wrong profession.

It’s easy to think someone deserves an ICU bed for cancer treatment but if they’re morbidly obese and have abused their body, do they really deserve it more than the unvaccinated? The unvaccinated aren’t all selfish people that are just being awkward, some are genuinely scared of the vaccine and the effect it might have on their health. Yet it’s easier to see them as just stubborn and accuse them of causing other innocent people to die but what a simplistic, self righteous attitude to have.

I don’t work in healthcare (although I have family that do) but I work with people that have lots of issues and cause themselves lots of other issues because of bad decisions. Do I look down on them? No! I understand that people are complex and make bad/wrong choices for a whole host of reasons, even if it sometimes looks like a simple case of stupidity or them being selfish.

The biggest risk factor for cancer and the host of other conditions is genetic. You can increase or reduce your risk with lifestyle choices, but its mainly down to genetics.

And obesity, alcohol consumption et al are influenced by very complex social conditions. Its easy to eat well and exercise if you live in a nice area, are affluent, can afford cleaners, can afford trainers an exercise classes, have a nice neighbourhood to run in, can afford good food. Its a lot harder for single mothers in deprived areas, working all the hours god sends and dropping into bed exhausted every night. Its hard to lose weight, overcome alcoholism, and the more challenging your life circumstances, the harder it is.

Its very easy to get vaccinated.

Unvaccinated people ARE causing suffering and death to other people now, when they catch covid, get ill and unnecessarily take up hospital beds and staff time.
Its not a personal liberty issue if it is causing such suffering to others.

[quote bumbleymummy]@pianolessons1 children aren’t the ones who need protected. They’re the lowest risk group. Age, obesity and underlying conditions are the biggest risk factors.[/quote]
I was referring to the MMR re kids

@Neron

So if you cared about the NHS before, why did you make the claim that no one else gave a toss before, when that's patently untrue? So I'll change my wording, as there are a couple of people here that cared previously. Aside from political parties who murmur about it, yet do nothing.

Just a deflection from the fact that people are making selfish, bad choices that are putting massive strain on a system that's already creaking.
You mean selfish choices like drugs, alcohol, obesity, procreation? No, these are not contagious, but all things that stress the system way before now.

Where was all the outraged posters, creating thread upon thread, about the NHS and the difficulties it faced before now. Why have there been no threads imploring people to stop being selfish and do the right thing to 'save the NHS'.

Ha! Trying to make out that the only people who care about the NHS are a couple of people on this thread rather than the millions who say every general election that it's their main priority. Nice try.

We know that poor health choices burden the NHS but they're not easily or quickly fixable, like having the jab is.

As throughout this thread you've tried to deflect from the current issue, which is anti vaxxers. Why is that?

@Pyewackect what % are overweight/obese? We’ve really missed out on the messaging that being overweight/obese increases your risk, even if you are younger.

@bumbleymummy

“By this stage we all know someone, or know someone who knows someone, who has died of Covid. There's no excuse for thinking 'Oh, it's just like a mild case of flu'.”

I don’t. Anyone I know who has had it has had it mildly/asymptomatically and just picked up because they had to test for work/close contact etc.

Lucky you. Let's hope it stays that way, which is likely if your friends are all vaccinated.

@AngeloMysterioso

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.

Same here….

People talking about obesity, alcoholism smoking etc are missing the point that these diseases only affect the sufferer and their family -- not other people

Not true. They may not infect others but they take away resource from those who need it. Being healthy increases your odds of needing less public resource.

There are doctors and scientists with very different views on the vaccine about who should need to be vaccinated even the WHO have said that boosters should not be given to healthy adults and children whilst some countries have hardly been able to vaccinate their elderly and vulnerable . A different view on being vaccinated doesn't make you thick

The WHO's position is that "equity" of vaccine supply should be prioritised over giving boosters in populations where most people have been vaccinated.

The WHO's priority as a global health body is to ensure that as many people as possible around the world get access to vaccines. They are not opining on the safety or viability of boosters.

As for these doctors and scientists with "different" views on who should be given the vaccine: again, that's to do with prioritisation on the basis of need.

The only area where there's been any real debate around the safety of vaccines has been around the CV risk associated with AZ, which led to younger populations being offered alternatives. No credible scientist has suggested that being unvaccinated is safer for any population group.

A different view on vaccination doesn't make you thick Sorry, but when it comes to taking the views of rogue scientists on Facebook and YouTube over those of the vast consensus of world scientists and kidding yourself that you're "doing research" when in fact you've never read a scientific paper in your life -- you are being thick. Or stubborn or selfish.

@thepeopleversuswork

There are doctors and scientists with very different views on the vaccine about who should need to be vaccinated even the WHO have said that boosters should not be given to healthy adults and children whilst some countries have hardly been able to vaccinate their elderly and vulnerable . A different view on being vaccinated doesn't make you thick

The WHO's position is that "equity" of vaccine supply should be prioritised over giving boosters in populations where most people have been vaccinated.

The WHO's priority as a global health body is to ensure that as many people as possible around the world get access to vaccines. They are not opining on the safety or viability of boosters.

As for these doctors and scientists with "different" views on who should be given the vaccine: again, that's to do with prioritisation on the basis of need.

The only area where there's been any real debate around the safety of vaccines has been around the CV risk associated with AZ, which led to younger populations being offered alternatives. No credible scientist has suggested that being unvaccinated is safer for any population group.

A different view on vaccination doesn't make you thick Sorry, but when it comes to taking the views of rogue scientists on Facebook and YouTube over those of the vast consensus of world scientists and kidding yourself that you're "doing research" when in fact you've never read a scientific paper in your life -- you are being thick. Or stubborn or selfish.

What about the doctors who aren't vaccinated then who will have read scientific papers are you saying they are thick ?

@Lostinacloud that's complete and utter bollocks. You're talking crap. How do I know? Because I see the daily report! It shows not vaccinated, 1 dose, 2 doses and booster.

3 40 somethings have died in the last few weeks, all unvaccinated. For the last 4 weeks 100% of our icu beds are unvaccinated before that it's been 90%

@SLH2003 except they’re not. Most of the people in hospital with covid at the moment are actually vaccinated. The elderly are still the most likely to be admitted and they have high vaccination rates. The vaccine reduces their risk but they’re still the highest risk group. Boosters for the older/vulnerable will have the most impact on reducing hospital figures. You can see them starting to fall already.

I'm fully vaccinated. My 13 year old is vaccinated. My 17 year old isn't vaccinated due to being autistic (sensory/social issues) but I'm working on her. My husband isn't vaccinated because his "immune system works fine". There are thousands of people as pig-headed as he is, unfortunately.

Yes, any doctors who aren't vaccinated- going against the weight of scientific opinion across the world- are thick. I will say it. Coming from a family of doctors myself.

I’m married to an ITU consultant. Can completely confirm that’s being said here. In fact it’s 100% unvaccinated currently in his ITU. He’s said that vaccinated hospital admissions tend to be a quick turnaround and be out fast, whereas the unvaccinated Covid sufferers in ITU tend to stay for weeks/months. Vaccinated are also more likely to have other health problems that leave them vulnerable to anything.

What’s so sad is people coming in having believed the anti vaccination nonsense only to beg for the vaccine, not understanding that at that point it’s too late. It’s a consequence they never saw coming and they are desperate.

Such needless deaths are an awful thing to see, especially when there’s such regret, but it seems that the anti vaxx message is so strong that there’s no getting through until they’re in that position.

I think the hospital comms teams should be putting out the stats of Covid admissions split by vaccination status/Covid ward/ITU. Once those figures are seen it’s pretty undebatable that the vaccines have been a game changer.

My BIL & SIL are vaccine refusers. Apparently covid all a big plot from some new world order to take control of us all, vaccines make you infertile, cause cancer and change your DNA. The weird thing is he’s an educated guy with a good job. It’s SO odd. And nothing you can say can change his mind. It annoys me as they merrily spend lots of time with a 90 year old relative, with no thought of their selfishness.
I told my friend, who is an intensive care consultant & has been ventilating people since March last year, about his comments, she basically said she’d like 5 minutes in a room with them 😡.

@Tranquilitybasehotelandcasino

Do people not understand that a lot of the other health issues that puts people in need of an ICU bed might also be as a result of poor/selfish decisions too? Lots of research to say that cancers can be prevented by health diets and looking after yourself or at least the risk lessened. Cardiovascular diseases can also be as a result of poor lifestyle choices. Yet we’re ok to treat them when they need an ICU bed. My mother in law was double jabbed and died of covid. ICU staff presumably would have felt she deserved their help and bed but she had been severely overweight all her life and a heavy smoker for a lot fo years. She developed kidney failure, diabetes and other issues as a result of her poor choices and ultimately, this is what put her in ICU, not just the COVID.

What I think is that we’ve treated people for years when they perhaps didn’t deserve it, when they’ve perhaps made bad decisions that caused their poor health. Health professionals are supposed to care and if you cannot just care without judgement, maybe you’re in the wrong profession.

It’s easy to think someone deserves an ICU bed for cancer treatment but if they’re morbidly obese and have abused their body, do they really deserve it more than the unvaccinated? The unvaccinated aren’t all selfish people that are just being awkward, some are genuinely scared of the vaccine and the effect it might have on their health. Yet it’s easier to see them as just stubborn and accuse them of causing other innocent people to die but what a simplistic, self righteous attitude to have.

I don’t work in healthcare (although I have family that do) but I work with people that have lots of issues and cause themselves lots of other issues because of bad decisions. Do I look down on them? No! I understand that people are complex and make bad/wrong choices for a whole host of reasons, even if it sometimes looks like a simple case of stupidity or them being selfish.

Many factors contribute to a person developing cancer - age, lifestyle, genetics. It's nearly always impossible to say for certain whether somebody got cancer because of X. The link between not being vaccinated and getting severely ill with Covid is much more direct. Stop making excuses.

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.

I'm the same. Taking a calculated risk with your own health is all very well, but all these Covid vaxx refusniks who end up being ill and needing hospital care are draining time, money and resources from other unwell people and stopping the rest of us being able to fully get back to normal. The restrictions that still exist exist precisely to protect the unvaccinated - most of whom could be vaccinated but won't be. And that is really infuriating.

Even if we had 100% vaccination rate covid isn't going to miraculously just go away. It will always exist, it will always mutate, maybe dangerously so, maybe not. But the more immunity we have (and that's most easily and safely achieved via vaccination) the sooner it won't matter.

No-one ever promised us 100% immunity from catching it or passing it on, or even from dying of it. But the risks of death and serious illness are so vastly, vastly reduced if it's being passed from vaccinated person to vaccinated person that only an idiot could fail to see the benefits.

@bumbleymummy I think going by admission stats is not the way to view it, it should be about who is needing ITU. That should be the measure of whether the vaccine is working.

@stillmorerubbish “The biggest risk factor for cancer and the host of other conditions is genetic.”

No it isn’t. The biggest risk factor for cancer is age. Genetics can also play a part (particular for certain cancer types) but lifestyle choices - smoking, drinking, tanning as well as obesity greatly increase your risk.

Yes OP, and as a direct result of this, my dear friend died. Heart operation repeatedly cancelled due to lack of ITU beds.
It's heartbreaking that this is being repeated all over the country, and baffling that unvaccinated people refuse to see it or acknowledge it (you even see the minimising on this thread with the quibbling over dates in the light of up to date evidence as well as mass anecdotal evidence from HCPs working in the thick of it.
I'm lost with it all.
But nothing will change their minds, I've realised this.

What about the doctors who aren't vaccinated then who will have read scientific papers are you saying they are thick ?

Yes they’re thick and I hope never to be treated by one.