90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@AngeloMysterioso

I’m usually pretty liberal but where this is concerned I’m beginning to feel quite strongly that if someone is prepared to not have the covid vaccine (unless advised not to for medical reasons) they should be prepared to not have treatment if/when they get covid. They knew the risks and made their choice.

Well thankfully we don't live in a country that would leave people dying on the streets. You sound bloody awful.

There are doctors and scientists with very different views on the vaccine about who should need to be vaccinated even the WHO have said that boosters should not be given to healthy adults and children whilst some countries have hardly been able to vaccinate their elderly and vulnerable

Right, but this is not uniquely the fault of the U.K. Refusing your booster will do nothing to resolve this. We can all bang on about inequalities in the system but it is a world problem, the likes of which existed long before Covid and will continue long after. By all means, raise it as an issue with your MP and have it fed back to the government but it will not be solved unless governments in the developed world collectively decide to honour their commitments.

Let's not forget - we're not in this position because of any decision any individual sitting in a hospital bed has made. We're here because successive governments over successive years have placed their own ambition over the needs of the people they supposedly serve.

This is correct. However, sitting wringing your hands about what went wrong over the past decades will not improve the situation right now. We have to work with what we have right now, and right now getting vaccinated is the one thing people can do to ensure ICU beds are available. Campaigning for a better NHS is something you should definitely do if you feel passionate about it, but that isn’t what will fix the crisis issue right now.

Yes they’re thick and I hope never to be treated by one.

So Aseem Malhotra, a cardiologist who is vaccinated but now has serious concerns about the potential of adverse cardiac events from the vaccine. He's been vaccinated = not thick?
Is a cardiologist with concerns relating to his field of expertise = thick? Or not thick?

I would welcome being treated by him as I know that I'd be supported and encouraged to make lifestyle changes that get to the root cause of problems if possible, rather than being handed statins as if they're sweeties but that could cause debilitating side effects.

How many people over 18 are actually unvaccinated? I looked but the only figure I found was 12+ but I imagine it isn’t unvaccinated 13-25 year olds filling up icu

And you would be in favor of this approach for smokers, drinkers, people who eat junk food and are overweight, people who go rock climbing or mountaineering and end up being rescued with frostbite or broken limbs? After all, they knew the risks…

You could say the same about people who fall from ladders who have car crashes. The list could go on and on.

The difference there is that a) they don't all put extra pressure on the NHS and ICU capacity at the same time, they don't stop other people having access to face to face GP appointments because of ongoing safety protocols and b) any decisions/choices that may have led to illness or injury largely only directly affect them, not society as a whole.

The rest of the population never had to to curtail freedoms, forgo the ability to travel freely and easily, or socialise exactly how and when they want, or wear masks etc for potentially another year because someone fell off a horse, or broke their back playing rugby or ate themselves to death or ended up with COPD from a lifetime of smoking.

This about civic responsibility just as as much as it is about personal choice.

@Tittyfilarious81

What about the doctors who aren't vaccinated then who will have read scientific papers are you saying they are thick?

Show me an example of a credible doctor who is still practising and who has refused to be vaccinated.

I think these sort of threads only benefit the Government. They must be delighted that people are so willing to fall into a 'them' and 'us' mentality rather than looking at why the NHS is on its knees. It's not because some people chose not to get vaccinated. It's because the Conservatives have systematically underfunded and dismantled it. It's because they gave multi-million pound contracts to their friends rather than the sector with experience. It's because they deliberately gave misleading and inaccurate advice about Covid restrictions hence undermining trust in all the advice. Likewise with them putting restrictions in place and then ignoring them.
The problems with the NHS should be firmly placed on the Conservatives. And until people wake up and realise it, they're going to keep voting them in and we'll have no NHS at all.

The sheer selfishness of people who are clogging up ICU beds because they refused to have a vaccination is staggering.

@ShinyHappyPoster

I think these sort of threads only benefit the Government. They must be delighted that people are so willing to fall into a 'them' and 'us' mentality rather than looking at why the NHS is on its knees. It's not because some people chose not to get vaccinated. It's because the Conservatives have systematically underfunded and dismantled it. It's because they gave multi-million pound contracts to their friends rather than the sector with experience. It's because they deliberately gave misleading and inaccurate advice about Covid restrictions hence undermining trust in all the advice. Likewise with them putting restrictions in place and then ignoring them. The problems with the NHS should be firmly placed on the Conservatives. And until people wake up and realise it, they're going to keep voting them in and we'll have no NHS at all.

Absolutely.

It depresses me that so many people don't see this.

I’m vaccinated so I get all the arguments for but there doesn’t seem to be any way to persuade. I think it might do the opposite.

I get some people can’t as per pp dc, have phobias, are worried about other illness and reaction, or feel they are low risk have already had Covid

But for a few the risk assessment is wrong and they end up in ICU and likely regret it, I can’t think of anything that would get through though that this is possible.

All of this focus on unvaccinated taking up icu beds (despite the NHS previously having been a non discriminatory organisation and taking into account the way in which unvaccinated are counted - i.e. double vaccinated but not boosted) is just to prepare everyone for the introduction of vaccine passports next year.
It’s so glaringly obvious it’s blinding. Propaganda rolled out now together with threats of last minute Christmas lockdowns and stories of other ill people missing out on treatment all gears the majority to accept the introduction of vaccine passports to “encourage” the last of the non vaccinated or double vaccinated hésitants to get the vaccine. Fully vaccinated people won’t worry (for now) about their introduction because it won’t matter to them, they can still access public spaces and why should the unvaccinated be offered the same privileges when they are causing this pandemic to be endless? Except by accepting them you are entering into a contract with the government whereby you must now agree to whatever conditions they place upon you in order to maintain your freedom. Who knows how many vaccines will be required and barely any exemptions remember, even if you’ve had adverse side effects.
I’m sure some posters on here will throw the good old tin foil hat insult at me but I’ve watched the exact same narrative play out across most of Europe and there is nothing good about it. It removes personal freedom, bodily autonomy, a parent’s choice whether or not to vaccinate their children when the passport applies to them too and does fuck all to control the virus.
Look at France. They were gloating that their numbers were not rising like in Germany and Austria a few short weeks ago and placing the success on their draconian vaccine passport. The thing is, they are now experiencing over 50,000 cases per day despite a largely vaccinated population and their icu beds are filling up just as fast.
I don’t think many here will believe me but we will soon see.

@Buzzinwithbez

Yes they’re thick and I hope never to be treated by one.

So Aseem Malhotra, a cardiologist who is vaccinated but now has serious concerns about the potential of adverse cardiac events from the vaccine. He's been vaccinated = not thick?
Is a cardiologist with concerns relating to his field of expertise = thick? Or not thick?

I would welcome being treated by him as I know that I'd be supported and encouraged to make lifestyle changes that get to the root cause of problems if possible, rather than being handed statins as if they're sweeties but that could cause debilitating side effects.

Aseem Malhotra may or may not be "thick" but he's been debunked.

fullfact.org/health/covid-vaccines-heart-disease/

No ICU for vaccine refusers is my opinion. I know it sounds a bit like North Korea but there you go

Possibly the most ill thought out comment i ve ever read anywhere.

Being an anti vaxxer doesn't automatically lead to serious illness at all, anymore than being a smoker leads to lung cancer.

Would you want a loved one, who refused a CV vaccine, left to die in a corridor because if you don't want them getting an ICU bed, then that means no treatment at all doesn't it? where would you draw the line?

Why will people take the new treatment/medication for covid or any other illness really but not take the vaccine?

The NHS is chronically underfunded but we all know that. We already know that people have had their essential, life saving treatment postponed because of Covid. To choose not to be vaccinated (not because you can’t be for medical reasons) is incredibly selfish. It impacts everyone.

The NHS isn’t under-funded - it’s a system totally inappropriate for this country in the 21st century. No amount of funding would help it, no amount of vaccinations or people losing weight. It doesn’t work, it has very poor health outcomes. Bleating on that it’s underfunded when actually governments are just pouring more and more money into it is just wilfully ignorant. We need to engage with the fact that we must look to European healthcare models to improve our country’s health.

I think it's time to go back to the media telling us exactly who is dying of covid now. They were publishing names, ages, faces, backstories before the vaccine. They've stopped now. I am very much in favour of the rest of us knowing exactly who is dying among the unvaccinated, and also among the vaccinated with the exception of very elderly people, and the reasons why they have failed to survive this virus which does seem to be particularly harmful for certain demographics, while others can be completely symptom free or just mildly ill.

If we now know which people are most likely to be badly affected by covid then I think it should be hammered home daily in a roll call of deaths and we should get to know whether their were underlying health issues or known risk factors (diabetes, morbid obesity, kidney problems, etc etc).

That way we can have a much truer picture of exactly who is more at risk than others, even if on the face of it they appear to be healthy. I suspect most of the vaccine refusers fall into a category or demographic where we already know they are likely to be more susceptible to death or serious illness from covid, but they are still of the opinion that the vaccine poses more risk to them than Covid does.

@NdujaWannaDance

And you would be in favor of this approach for smokers, drinkers, people who eat junk food and are overweight, people who go rock climbing or mountaineering and end up being rescued with frostbite or broken limbs? After all, they knew the risks…

You could say the same about people who fall from ladders who have car crashes. The list could go on and on.

The difference there is that a) they don't all put extra pressure on the NHS and ICU capacity at the same time, they don't stop other people having access to face to face GP appointments because of ongoing safety protocols and b) any decisions/choices that may have led to illness or injury largely only directly affect them, not society as a whole.

The rest of the population never had to to curtail freedoms, forgo the ability to travel freely and easily, or socialise exactly how and when they want, or wear masks etc for potentially another year because someone fell off a horse, or broke their back playing rugby or ate themselves to death or ended up with COPD from a lifetime of smoking.

This about civic responsibility just as as much as it is about personal choice.

Not true.

GP surgeries have been clogged up for YEARS with patients suffering from diabetes and heart disease and other smoking and obesity related diseases. These people often have several, complex conditions at the same time requiring intensive community and hospital based health support. My mum used to be a practice manager before she retired. She retired ten years ago. It was just as impossible to get a GP appointment then as it is now.

Hospitals have always been full with people with mainly these self inflicted conditions.

Yes, all at the same time.

And it is these people who also have the most severe covid complications that end up in them requiring intensive care.

Self inflicted illness is why the NHS is 'on its knees'. Refusal to acknowledge this to justify your lack of compassion for other people and support of fascist medical policies is concerning.

Whatever the reason people need medical care, they should receive it. The minute we start rationing healthcare and choosing who 'deserves' it and who doesn't, is the minute we start losing our humanity.

That's what the government wants, by the way. Because then we'll continue to go along with supporting their policies to privatise and capitalise the entirety of our society, because we'll have stopped looking at each other as fellow human beings and simply as the amount of pounds and pence they're costing 'us'.

The NHS isn’t under-funded - it’s a system totally inappropriate for this country in the 21st century. No amount of funding would help it, no amount of vaccinations or people losing weight. It doesn’t work, it has very poor health outcomes. Bleating on that it’s underfunded when actually governments are just pouring more and more money into it is just wilfully ignorant. We need to engage with the fact that we must look to European healthcare models to improve our country’s health.

Completely 100% agree. Those who keep bleating about Tory underfunding are sticking their heads in the sand. The sooner the NHS is radically overhauled the better.

@bumbleymummy

Since you're so determined to rubbish the facts regarding UK ICUs being overwhelmed by unvaccinated covid patients, have a look at some other countries' figures.

Michigan USA:

www.mlive.com/public-interest/2021/11/94-of-its-covid-patients-in-icu-are-unvaccinated-spectrum-health-says.html

Netherlands:

www.rivm.nl/en/news/4-in-5-covid-19-patients-in-icu-are-not-vaccinated

Australia:

www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/unvaccinated-patients-dominate-covid-deaths-and-ic

People trying to deny that idiot anti-vaxxers are not clogging up ICUs make me sick.

My mum has been waiting for an op for over a year now and has slowly deteriorated whilst waiting, now being pretty much housebound.

She will need a short stay in ICU immediately afterwards but should make a quick and full recovery, but here we are with appointment after appointment cancelled because of lack of ICU beds due to idiots clogging them up.

There are so, so many people in the same situation waiting for operations - many much more urgent than my mum's - and it's bloody sickening to listen to people defending the idiots.

There are a number of issues around confidentiality of patient information that might interfere with that.

@Buzzinwithbez

Yes they’re thick and I hope never to be treated by one.

So Aseem Malhotra, a cardiologist who is vaccinated but now has serious concerns about the potential of adverse cardiac events from the vaccine. He's been vaccinated = not thick?
Is a cardiologist with concerns relating to his field of expertise = thick? Or not thick?

I would welcome being treated by him as I know that I'd be supported and encouraged to make lifestyle changes that get to the root cause of problems if possible, rather than being handed statins as if they're sweeties but that could cause debilitating side effects.

Fears about the jabs were stoked last month by Dr Aseem Malhotra, a London-based cardiologist, who claimed that recent research showed that mRNA vaccines can markedly increase the risk of severe myocarditis.

His claims were based on a 319-word research abstract, published in the American Heart Association journal Circulation, which said that mRNA vaccines, such as the Pfizer-BioNTech jab, can cause heart-cell inflammation. Numerous clinical experts criticised the abstract, which does not detail a full study and has not been peer-reviewed.

The American Heart Association subsequently published an “expression of concern” in Circulation to warn that the passage may not be reliable and that a “suitable correction” was needed.

The above comes from a news report about the serious heart problems caused in patients who have had a bad attack of Covid-19.

I don't think Dr Malhotra is thick, but he has done a piss-poor job by spreading fear about the vaccine on such flimsy evidence.

If you are worried about damaging your heart, get vaccinated.

My MIL had her heart operation cancelled last week. Why? Because there was no ITU bed for her.

@NdujaWannaDance

From the ONS

’ In 2017, the UK spent £2,989 per person on healthcare, which was around the median for members of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development: OECD (£2,913 per person).
However, of the G7 group of large, developed economies, UK healthcare spending per person was the second-lowest, with the highest spenders being France (£3,737), Germany (£4,432) and the United States (£7,736).’