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Covid

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90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

999 replies

Desithebulldog · 06/12/2021 00:55

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

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bumbleymummy · 07/12/2021 23:10

@XenoBitch yes, I think it’s going to backfire a bit.

1dayatatime · 07/12/2021 23:24

@ichundich

On the basis that @Innocenta refused to provide actual examples or posts or quotes showing that @bumbleymummy is an anti vaxxer on the basis that it is pointless as she is an anti vaxxer, I thought the ducking stool and witchcraft analogy was not far off the mark.

It's a bit like being accused of theft but it is pointless for the accuser to provide actual evidence of theft because "well you're a thief".

IHateFlies · 07/12/2021 23:42

It is down to social media and, in particular, Twitter that’s given rise to words like ‘snowflake’ ‘Karen’ etc and now ‘anti-vaxxer‘ to be used to dismiss someone’s opinion in one word.
Thankfully, mumsnet doesn’t have a word count so we can engage in debate and share opinions in as much detail as we like.

Beadebaser · 08/12/2021 06:48

To be fair - the definition of anti-vaxx is - opposed to vaccination.
And @bumbleymummy has raised lots of questions about whether it’s the unvaccinated in the ICU, whether the vaccine stops the spread of infection, aluminium in vaccines etc. Lots of doubts, and raising doubts in the minds of others. Which can be very harmful. When science articles are presented that state the contrary, she’ll find less valid science to back it, or skew certain phrases in the article without context.
What worries me is that there is a consensus of worldwide thought on Covid. World leaders on virology are studying and analysing reasearch every day. It’s their job.
Why are we questioning what they say in favour of @bumbleymummy - who ‘claims’ she is a doctor on social media - but antagonising many who are pro following the guidelines (which - I’ll say again -IS THE CONSENSUS OF WORLDWIDE MEDICAL THOUGHT BY VIROLOGISTS ON COVID).

Beachcomber · 08/12/2021 07:31

"Antivaxxer" has become an idiotic slur. It is chucked about with abandon and has become meaningless.

Which doesn't however stop it from doing harm. Unfortunately. It's used to shut people up, to discredit, to censor and to divide.

It is not an argument or an analysis. It brings nothing to the discussion and it is lazy.

It's also behind the times and narrow minded. Covid vaccines are not proving to be as effective as was hoped. We need to be able to have sensible grown up thoughtful discussions about that and about what the way forward is. The overuse of idiotic thought stopping language such as "antivaxxer" is the antithesis of that.

Beadebaser · 08/12/2021 07:41

@Beachcomber

I think views that go against the general consensus of medical thought when we are in a pandemic - and those views result in harm caused to others - SHOULD be discredited.

There are many words used by the media - anti vaxx perhaps deserves the connotations it has BECAUSE of the harm antivaxxers cause to others. I’ll choose to keep using it thanks.

Beachcomber · 08/12/2021 07:59

The problem is that "the general consensus" is not static. It is evolving as the pandemic evolves. Or at least it should be.

What is "antivaxx" one day may become the general consensus the next.

Take for example covid vaccine effectiveness. Back in the beginning of vaccination it was considered "antivaxx" to question the effectiveness of the vaccines. The clinical trials demonstrated efficacy of 95% and you were an "avtivaxxer" if you raised an eyebrow at that figure and were sceptical about how that would translate to actual effectiveness in the wider public.

Currently it is widely accepted and has become the general consensus that effectiveness is a lot lower than 95% and that it wanes significantly over time.

People will of course continue to use the word "avtivaxxer" but I think it lacks agility and nuance in a situation which is constantly evolving. It's black and white thinking when what we need is agile thinking.

And like I said before it's a divisive slur when what we need is respectful teamwork.

nojudgementhere · 08/12/2021 08:02

@Bradebaser - You seem to be a bit offended by the fact that not everyone is blindly accepting everything they read in the newspapers as absolute, unequivocal truth. Why are you so frightened of people asking questions? The information used to start this whole thread, stating that 90% of all ICU patients are unvaccinated, is clearly not true and designed to cause outrage against anyone who will not comply. I thereofore think people have a right and indeed a responsibility to challenge this kind of misinformation.

Questioning how much the vaccine stops transmission is something that is important, particularly as the whole point of vaccine passports surely depends on them doing this extremely well? By raising the fact that they're not performing as efficiently in this area as hoped, there is a chance of slowing transmission by people mitigating risk in other ways - i.e. regular testing. Just carrying on, blithely ignoring these facts, so as not to sow doubt about the efficacy of the vaccines, would therefore surely be more harmful in the long run than accepting their limitations?

I don't believe that many of the posters on this thread are anti-vaccine in the traditional sense. The Covid vaccines have done a fantastic job in reducing hospitilisations and deaths among the more vulnerable members of society and I personally can't recall seeing any posts denying this. However, "the science" is permanently evolving. Many of the original 'facts' we were given by WORLDWIDE VIROLOGISTS about Covid have now been proved to be untrue (anyone else regretting the hours they spent washing down groceries yet?!). This is why it's important people keep on challenging the science surely? Wihout questions and without challenge the science would never advance.

Innocenta · 08/12/2021 08:05

Hello again, @EnidSpyton Smile

Thank you for talking through how you feel about this. While, obviously, I disagree, this is the kind of discussion I’m genuinely very happy to have - and actually, I don’t think your view is unreasonable per se, it’s simply founded on a different set of principles about how to approach extreme circumstances (like the pandemic).

I don’t think that having, in this sense, different foundational views about how society should work is truly a sufficient thing, in and of itself, to ‘qualify’ someone as ‘being’ an anti-vaxxer. Where the grey area arises, for me, is in the fact that many people who claim to be arguing from principles, then go on to invoke storied anti-vaxxer arguments. Once someone is doing that, even if they are also claiming to be motivated by philosophical reasons, then they are - in literal terms - perpetuating the spread of anti-vaxxer views. But it is perfectly possible, I am entirely willing to concede this, to have an unblemished, scientifically robust understanding of the benefits of vaccination - and yet still to come down on the side of strongly opposing a mandate. I have no problem with that position, despite my strong disagreement.

Essentially, then, what drives my stance is a sort of ‘utilitarianism as far as possible, in a real-world setting’ (i.e. setting aside extremist, thought-experiment cases). In a nutshell: I believe a well-resourced, effectively organised mandate would ultimately cause the least suffering. Even then, it isn’t my preference - but it could, in theory, be done, whereas adequate medical literacy for the whole population literally cannot be achieved in a matter of weeks.

Innocenta · 08/12/2021 08:07

@Beachcomber 'antivaxx' and 'antivaxxer' are not slurs.

RampantIvy · 08/12/2021 08:17

I resent the implication that theose who won't vaccinate (won't not can't) assume that the vaccinated are blindly following the science.

It's two sides of the same coin - both sides being accused of being "sheeple" by the other side.

I am double vaccinated and have booked my booster, but this was a fully informed decision. I know and understand that no vaccine is 100%, but vaccination does reduce the risks. I also know that this vaccine wasn't rushed through, but the process was speeded up due to the amount of readily available funding, and that is good enough for me.

As a logical and rational person with a scientist husband and scientist DD (who scored 98% in her immunology exam at university, and fully understands how vaccination works) I considered everything before getting vaccinated.

I just get exasperated by people who just refuse to understand the statistics and who prefer to believe in some of the tinpot conspiracy theories going around - mainly on social media.

Northsoutheastwest76 · 08/12/2021 08:19

God we really are lacking in comprehension skills on this thread. The 90% figure is misleading as it appears to refer to a subset of ICU patients needing ECMO. .The latest giggles God ICU in general suggest 70% approx vaccinated.
The 35% figure constantly bandied on here relates to hospital admissions in general. So perhaps on some cases more eldetly patients who are not suitable candidates fir ICU.. You know the type the deniers would say was going to die soon anyway.
They are nit the ones preventing major heart sbd cancer OPS. It's those in ICU in beds for weeks on end.

Northsoutheastwest76 · 08/12/2021 08:22

Giggles God. What the heck autocorrect!
Figures for ICU and yes those figures are nit that up to date May to July but looking at the 60 plus figures gives you a good idea of the likely split.

bumbleymummy · 08/12/2021 08:24

@Beadebaser

Well you clearly haven’t bothered reading my posts. Hmm I’ve said several times that we should be trying to reduce the number of unvaccinated people with high BMIs in ICU By increasing awareness of their risk to improve vaccine uptake. That very clearly acknowledges their presence in ICU.

The vaccine not being as good at preventing infection/transmission compared to preventing serious illness in the individual isn’t something I’ve come up with - it’s based on published research in reputable journals which has been linked to by several people (including me) across this board for months now. Why do you think people are now being offered 3rd doses?

And yes I very much will ‘raise doubts’ about vaccine mandates and passports - there is no ‘worldwide consensus’ on them. They are damaging, ineffective and unnecessary. Vaccinating/boosting vulnerable groups has had more impact on numbers in hospital than vaccine passports ever will.

Beachcomber · 08/12/2021 08:26

They are slurs when they are used to dismiss, discredit or smear people and ideas which express sensible legitimate concerns and questions.

An antivaxxer is someone who thinks vaccines contain microchips / lizards / insert utter nonsense here.

Not concerned and normal parents who question vaccine effectiveness / the need to vaccinate children / whether mandatory vaccination can be justified by current and emerging data.

They are stupid unhelpful words which are being overused and misused. They are also really effing boring and tedious so I'm going to stop discussing them now they simply aren't worth it. Sensible people can see that they are unhelpful and unsophisticated words.

bumbleymummy · 08/12/2021 08:27

And I agree with beachcomber. ‘Antivaxxer’ is increasingly used as a slur to try to shut down discussion and censor people.

nojudgementhere · 08/12/2021 08:33

@RampantIvy

I resent the implication that theose who won't vaccinate (won't not can't) assume that the vaccinated are blindly following the science.

It's two sides of the same coin - both sides being accused of being "sheeple" by the other side.

I am double vaccinated and have booked my booster, but this was a fully informed decision. I know and understand that no vaccine is 100%, but vaccination does reduce the risks. I also know that this vaccine wasn't rushed through, but the process was speeded up due to the amount of readily available funding, and that is good enough for me.

As a logical and rational person with a scientist husband and scientist DD (who scored 98% in her immunology exam at university, and fully understands how vaccination works) I considered everything before getting vaccinated.

I just get exasperated by people who just refuse to understand the statistics and who prefer to believe in some of the tinpot conspiracy theories going around - mainly on social media.

I totally support and respect your decision to vaccinate and believe that you based it on scientific evidence and your own assessment of risk.

I would very much like to be given that same respect and self-autonomy and get exasperated by people who throw around words like 'tinpot conspiracies' to try and belittle alternative points of view.

Beachcomber · 08/12/2021 08:43

I also totally respect people's choice to be vaccinated. Most of my friends and family are. I'm glad that my elderly parents are vaccinated. I don't think they are "sheeple" (another nasty unhelpful word).

I just don't think my DD who has had covid and sailed through it despite being asthmatic needs to be vaccinated so that she can go to school / out for dinner / the cinema / visit her grandparents who are either vaccinated or have also had covid.

One can be both for and against covid vaccines at the same time.

Mind-blowing I know. Hmm

churchofthepoisonmind · 08/12/2021 08:47

Science and medicine has become so politicised in this pandemic it is impossible to take it seriously anymore. You have had the PM flanked by scientists all the pandemic, giving credence to a known liar.
In the US, Fauci basically has spent the entire pandemic arguing with the Republicans and backing the Democrat policies. That's not science it's politics.
Yet we keep being told we must not question the science.
It's complete bollocks, anybody can see that.

Beadebaser · 08/12/2021 08:55

@Beachcomber what ever you like to call it - anti vaxx, anti science, anti - the general consensus of medical thought.

It’s going against what the consensus of medical thought is worldwide. Of course it’s not static, but the best people judging ARE virologists, professors whoever else. Do you think virologists etc think the whole picture is static. Of course not. The picture is changing on a daily basis, they are highly qualified, study peer reviewed research and inform the public of the best course of action.

People going against medical science (anti vaxx, anti science, anti medicine etc) on social medical - thinking they know better than the best qualified people worldwide -and persuading the vulnerable to make poor decisions IS dangerous.

Beadebaser · 08/12/2021 08:57

*media not medical

Beadebaser · 08/12/2021 08:58

The problem is people are desperate - and rather than working together - the anti science brigade are destroying people’s lives.

IHateFlies · 08/12/2021 09:04

I agree with @churchofthepoisonmind. People are following the politicised science and there are many qualified scientists and doctors who want to bring alternatives to the table but are ignored or sometimes discredited.

Beachcomber · 08/12/2021 09:07

[quote Beadebaser]@Beachcomber what ever you like to call it - anti vaxx, anti science, anti - the general consensus of medical thought.

It’s going against what the consensus of medical thought is worldwide. Of course it’s not static, but the best people judging ARE virologists, professors whoever else. Do you think virologists etc think the whole picture is static. Of course not. The picture is changing on a daily basis, they are highly qualified, study peer reviewed research and inform the public of the best course of action.

People going against medical science (anti vaxx, anti science, anti medicine etc) on social medical - thinking they know better than the best qualified people worldwide -and persuading the vulnerable to make poor decisions IS dangerous.[/quote]
Quite honestly I think that the vast majority of people are sensible and can see the crazy antivaxx stuff for what it is. I don't think it is worth too much worry or headspace.

Meanwhile the rest of us should be able to get on with sensible, respectful, nuanced and evolving discussions with room for disagreement and differing opinions without resorting to insults / slurs / rudeness.

SLH2003 · 08/12/2021 09:15

@IHateFlies

I agree with *@churchofthepoisonmind*. People are following the politicised science and there are many qualified scientists and doctors who want to bring alternatives to the table but are ignored or sometimes discredited.
What alternatives?
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