90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@churchofthepoisonmind

I've asked you to explain why you think forced medical treatment for an entire population doesn't fit the definition of fascism. Of course it is fascism *@EnidSpyton* . It's the old saying, if something looks like a turd, smells like a turd ... We are in an interesting situation now where lots of people who have gone along with the huge vaccine drive, the lockdowns, and so on now feel they have to go along with vaccine mandates. I get the feeling such people are doing mental gymnastics trying to justify their position but they also know deep down, these mandates are just wrong wrong wrong on so many levels, it's hard to know where to begin.

Very interesting. I think you're on to something here.

What I detest is the 'Blitz' spirit attitude of 'we're all in this together' and we're doing it all for 'the common good', hence if you don't want a vaccine you're a selfish murderer.

Using a lexis of military vocabulary right from the beginning of the pandemic has made people think they're fighting in a war with an actual enemy, dividing people into 'good' and 'bad' camps depending on what 'side' of the vaccine debate they're on. The reality is there is no war and there is no enemy, but the biggest success of the media has been to convince us there is, and to therefore blame one another for the situation we're in rather than an inanimate virus and a bunch of incompetent blokes bumbling blindly along the corridors of Downing Street listening to 'the science' (when they're not having an illegal Christmas do/foreign holiday/family get together/insert other roolz breaking activity here).

@EnidFrighten hello cousin!

What I wouldn't give for Enid Blyton's take on all these shenanigans!

@WTAFhappened123

Do not believe the scaremongering press! My neighbor works on CCU and the stats you’re hearing are total rubbish! There may be patients on ICU who’ve had a heart attack and have tested positive for COVID but they are in ICU because of their heart attack

Many heart attacks, liver failure etc is directly caused by their Covid 🙄

Okay, @EnidSpyton - taking you at your word that you genuinely weren't intending to be rude, I will give it another go.

To clarify, I think this (vaccine mandates) is an issue where there are multiple valid viewpoints. While I support the concept of a vaccine mandate, I don't think it's inherently wrong to (1) be philosophically opposed; or (2) have such a different opinion on how, why or when such a mandate should be used that, in effect, there is no conformity of view with my own.

Not liking something, or being opposed to it, does not make it fascism. There are many things I do not like - things I think are very wrong - which are happening in the UK, but while, yes, I can call them fascism if I want to, it doesn't particularly mean anything if I do. Fascism refers to facists. There needs to be more of a reason to borrow a term than 'I don't like this thing'. Is it 'fascist' to eat meat because a lot of historical fascists ate it? I'm a vegan and I don't like people eating meat, but I acknowledge that I have no right to restrict others' choices in this matter. I have seen numerous other vegans describe eating animal products as fascism (criticising something I also dislike and disagree with), but I do not support borrowing the term in that context either.

I would actually have fallen under the aegis of Aktion T4 - in addition to being the close descendent of somebody targeted by the Nazis on racial and intellectual grounds. I cannot go into detail for obvious personal reasons.

I know it can be very tempting to wield the strong weapon of 'fascist!' in an online argument, but you can just, you know, try another word. I don't believe you are, in this case, even trying to cause any personal harm or offence, but this is always the risk when you throw it around lightly.

'Anti-vaxxer' has become the new way to shut down all argument, debate or discussion. Did anybody see this?: www.theguardian.com/australia-news/video/2021/nov/22/stuff-it-shove-it-a-furious-michael-gunner-calls-out-those-against-vaccine-mandates-video
I would urge anybody to watch this.
This guy is Australia's poster child for vaccine mandates. He is almost foaming at the mouth!

[quote Lostinacloud]@WoodyGd that sounds really tough and shouldn’t be happening but why aren’t you blaming the government? They have found billions for their mates’ covid testing businesses and more billions for vaccines for healthy not at risk teens and adults but can’t invest in the NHS during a pandemic or pre pandemic when faced with an ever ageing population?
Next they plan to sack thousands of healthcare workers because they wish to make a choice over what goes into their own bodies.
I can see why in the short term you would be frustrated by non vaccinated Covid patients using beds in icu but really we should all be asking much more of the government and not of each other.[/quote]
I totally agree with you WoodyGd. Most of the people in my ITU are all the clever ones who decided they knew better and chose not to have the vaccine.

They spend weeks if not months in ITU, suffer a hell of a lot (will probably never be quite the same again) and like you said, all those people desperate for life saving surgery are denied their operation as beds are taken up with covid patients. I really have no sympathy for the unvaccinated with covid.

@Lillibee4 Misleading people about vaccine efficacy and safety leads to avoidable deaths.

@Sudoku88 what percentage of those unvaccinated patients in your icu are overweight/obese? Do you know why they decided not to be vaccinated?

[quote 1dayatatime]@Innocenta

You clearly strongly feel that @bumbleymummy is some kind of clandestine anti vaxxer discretely sowing doubt despite her protestations that she is not an anti vaxxer.

Perhaps one way to find out the "real truth" would be to put @bumbleymummy on a ducking stool. If she drowns then clearly was not an anti vaxxer but if she survives then despite her denials then she is most definitely an evil anti vaxxer, Covid denialist, 5G conspiracy etc and should therefore be dealt with accordingly.

I thought you might approve of this approach?[/quote]
Very 'mature' @1dayatatime.

I actually found it quite amusing :)

What I detest is the 'Blitz' spirit attitude of 'we're all in this together' and we're doing it all for 'the common good'

I actually do agree with you about this aspect. Myth-making by a calculating government with, as always, no real interest in the public good. The 'Blitz spirit' needs vast debunking.

Well I hope you are not a smoker or drink at all because any lung related or liver related maybe you shouldn’t have treatment either 🙄

Well, you definitely shouldn’t for stds either. Practically self inflicted.

@Innocenta

Okay, *@EnidSpyton* - taking you at your word that you genuinely weren't intending to be rude, I will give it another go.

To clarify, I think this (vaccine mandates) is an issue where there are multiple valid viewpoints. While I support the concept of a vaccine mandate, I don't think it's inherently wrong to (1) be philosophically opposed; or (2) have such a different opinion on how, why or when such a mandate should be used that, in effect, there is no conformity of view with my own.

Not liking something, or being opposed to it, does not make it fascism. There are many things I do not like - things I think are very wrong - which are happening in the UK, but while, yes, I can call them fascism if I want to, it doesn't particularly mean anything if I do. Fascism refers to facists. There needs to be more of a reason to borrow a term than 'I don't like this thing'. Is it 'fascist' to eat meat because a lot of historical fascists ate it? I'm a vegan and I don't like people eating meat, but I acknowledge that I have no right to restrict others' choices in this matter. I have seen numerous other vegans describe eating animal products as fascism (criticising something I also dislike and disagree with), but I do not support borrowing the term in that context either.

I would actually have fallen under the aegis of Aktion T4 - in addition to being the close descendent of somebody targeted by the Nazis on racial and intellectual grounds. I cannot go into detail for obvious personal reasons.

I know it can be very tempting to wield the strong weapon of 'fascist!' in an online argument, but you can just, you know, try another word. I don't believe you are, in this case, even trying to cause any personal harm or offence, but this is always the risk when you throw it around lightly.

Thank you for taking the time to reply in such depth.

I disagree with you entirely but I respect your right to hold your views.

For me, fascism is the right word in this context because state enforced medical treatment is, to me:

1. Authoritarian - it literally removes personal freedom
2. Placing the needs of the state above that of the individual

Those are the central tenets of fascism.

I don't believe I am throwing the word around lightly. I'm using it with deadly seriousness. It genuinely terrifies me that I'm living in a world where some democratic governments are locking up their citizens and refusing to let them leave their homes until they get vaccinated. I'm glad it doesn't terrify you, but as someone with a family history of oppression under the Nazi regime, I'm really surprised it doesn't. This vaccine mandate issue really is the thin end of the wedge. Once the door to state control of our bodies is propped open, I dread to think where it will lead.

@Lillibee4

Well I hope you are not a smoker or drink at all because any lung related or liver related maybe you shouldn’t have treatment either 🙄

Is this delightful missive addressed to me, @Lillibee4 ?

Thank you for the reply, @EnidSpyton - I appreciate your response; will reply myself in the morning if there's still space in the thread (!).

Sorry it can't be more immediate; we just switched out our lights.

@Userevermore

Do we know how many are overweight or obese, that is always kept quiet

Fluffy cloud, I am so sorry to hear this. I work in ITU and we have a covid wing full of all the clever clogs who thought they knew better and didn’t get vaccinated.

@Sudoku88 it looks like Userevermore and I both asked you the same question.

StealthPolarBear

I said this at the time, what on earth was the point of building the nightingale hospitals? They were going to save us, and yet they didn't because as many others have pointed out, there are not enough staff. When whoever planned to build them, what were their plans to staff them?

This.

Can some of the haters-of-the-unjabbed please address this very salient point?

The Nightingale hospitals were to divert people who were likely to die to keep bed space for the people who had a higher chance of survival in hospital, where they would have better care.
The morgues built at the back were incredibly large and the expectation that if SHTF, people could be shipped there to offer the hospitals some relief. As it turned out, they did not go that route, because they cannot staff it, like the beds they cannot staff now. Unvaccinated people for their own reasons remain unvaccinated but the issue here lies deeper than other peoples freedom of choice.

We could have had COVID treatment take place in nightingale hospitals for the most part, however the matter still stands, no one to offer treatment and besides most caught covid in hospital anyway, (or at least the first two waves did) which makes it difficult to divide the people who are soley fighting covid with people who are in for other issues which require specialist treatment, in any case. It goes without saying that if you take bed space in any capacity in hospital currently you are denying someone else. The back log would not be so large if things were dealt with better to begin with. But alas the 'unvaccinated' are now being blamed, some of which are people who have just not had boosters but are now eligible.

What baffles me the most is - if you test positive for COVID so long as you are vaccinated you do not have isolate?! makes absolutely zero sense, you can still transmit the virus.

[quote bumbleymummy]@Sudoku88 what percentage of those unvaccinated patients in your icu are overweight/obese? Do you know why they decided not to be vaccinated?[/quote]
We get all sorts. The problem with covid is that when you catch it, you just don’t know how your body is going to react. Yes I would say the majority of covid positive unvaccinated people are those with underlying health problems (but not all of them are over weight ),

However, you also get those you would never expect to see in ITU with covid. Looked after someone recently, 30 year old man, no past medical history - therefore regarded as fit and healthy, not overweight, however he choose not to have the vaccine and was now intubated in ITU. And when that happens it’s often a slippery slope as we don’t know which way it will go. Furthermore, if you’re lucky enough to make it out of ITU, the road to recovery is a very long, slow, arduous process and you may never be the same again.

I have family members who have chosen not to have the vaccine for whatever in my opinion, ridiculous reason. I think they are crazy. Like I previously said, all those unvaccinated who catch covid and end up in ITU, I have absolutely no sympathy at all.

The problem with joe public is they see a few clips on the tv about how bad the ITU’s are etc etc. what they don’t experience is the actual reality of it all. A good 12 hour shift experiencing the shit these seriously sick have to go through will soon open their eyes and make them change their tune.

You do have to isolate if you test positive, whether vaccinated or not. If you're vaccinated, you don't have to isolate if someone in your household tests positive (unless it's omicron). That's the difference.

So much gaslight!

After all the twisting and turning and diverting, so many people (who presumably would not call even Andrew Wakefield an anti-vaxxer) are in any case, by the updated definition of the term, plain old anti-vaxxers.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer

[quote milkyaqua]So much gaslight!

After all the twisting and turning and diverting, so many people (who presumably would not call even Andrew Wakefield an anti-vaxxer) are in any case, by the updated definition of the term, plain old anti-vaxxers.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer[/quote]
That makes no sense. So you could be very pro-vaccine, had every jab going... yet if you are against them being mandated then you are an anti-vaxxer?
Ridiculous!

That’s fine @milkyaqua. As discussed upthread, with that new definition, we’re in good company. Plenty of people are against vaccine mandates :)