90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@EnidSpyton It is not Fascism. I have not called anyone a 'thicko' so I'm unsure why you're bringing that up!

We can discuss the ethics of you want to.

[quote Innocenta]@EnidSpyton It is not Fascism. I have not called anyone a 'thicko' so I'm unsure why you're bringing that up!

We can discuss the ethics of you want to. [/quote]
*if

Sorry!

[quote Innocenta]@EnidSpyton It is not Fascism. I have not called anyone a 'thicko' so I'm unsure why you're bringing that up!

We can discuss the ethics of you want to. [/quote]
Please explain how forcing people to have medical treatment they don't want isn't fascism.

I'm genuinely all ears.

@17istgemagicnumber

Like I said *@nojudgementhere*- back in 2012 she’s posting ‘scary’ stuff about aluminium in vaccines. Subtlety. Wide eyed. What do you think about this type stuff. If it’s ‘ok’ to call the government out on supposed drip drip type manipulation - then why not apply the same to certain posters on here.

It's hardly drip, drip manipulation if you have to travel all the way back to 2012 to try and find an example of it.

Dictionary definition of drip drip : a continued dripping.

Quote from the article you are upset about: "Between 20 per cent and 30 per cent of critical care beds in England are occupied by Covid patients and three quarters of those have not been vaccinated, according to the latest data up to July this year."

Therefore approx 22.5 % of ICU beds are being 'misused' by vaccine free COVID patients?
This should not be bringing the NHS to its knees. And this is only the data til July this year. We are now in December. I'd like to see recent figures and also how the government is funding would be nurses to apply and train up. 😂 the beds are available - it's the lack of nursing staff that's the issue. Look at other European countries - none of them are saying 'save our health service!'

Catching up with a friend who works in the ICU ward. I know now the 90% number is maybe not correct. In his ward he says it more like 85% unvaccinated.

@Innocenta

"Very well said. If you've been around on the internet with your eyes open... You know it. It's all in the playbook, just like this attempt to force anyone who challenges their doctrine into fruitless 'debate'. "

++++

Wow @bumbleymummy now has a playbook!!! This is clearly a lot deeper and darker than I first thought.

Do you think think she might also be responsible for failed crops or curdled milk as well? Don't worry about providing any actual quotes from her, random unsubstantiated accusations will be perfectly fine.

I do wholeheartedly agree though that there are certainly some crazy conspiracy theorists on this thread.

@Maximum71

Quote from the article you are upset about: "Between 20 per cent and 30 per cent of critical care beds in England are occupied by Covid patients and three quarters of those have not been vaccinated, according to the latest data up to July this year."

Therefore approx 22.5 % of ICU beds are being 'misused' by vaccine free COVID patients?
This should not be bringing the NHS to its knees. And this is only the data til July this year. We are now in December. I'd like to see recent figures and also how the government is funding would be nurses to apply and train up. 😂 the beds are available - it's the lack of nursing staff that's the issue. Look at other European countries - none of them are saying 'save our health service!'

That wouldn't be because loads and loads of European staff left the NHS to return to their home countries a few years ago then? Or that the government decided to introduce tuition fees and remove grants for nursing students, so that a lot of adults can't afford to do the course without working to pay bills? (they can't work because of the placement and study hours) Or because the pay is shite and you get more in some jobs that you don't need a degree for without raking up 30k of debt in the process?

@EnidSpyton Either you wish to have a good faith discussion about the ethical issues involved, or you don't. It is your own choice - as in other threads, I am perfectly willing to engage with anyone who is speaking seriously. I won't waste my time on carping and nastiness.

@Innocenta

", I am perfectly willing to engage with anyone who is speaking seriously."

Or should that read:

"I am perfectly willing to engage with anyone who doesn't challenge anything I say"

That wouldn't be because loads and loads of European staff left the NHS to return to their home countries a few years ago then?
Or that the government decided to introduce tuition fees and remove grants for nursing students, so that a lot of adults can't afford to do the course without working to pay bills? (they can't work because of the placement and study hours) Or because the pay is shite and you get more in some jobs that you don't need a degree for without raking up 30k of debt in the process?

This!

@1dayatatime You're welcome to challenge what I say. There is a big difference between disagreeing and challenging (which are fine), and the types of comment I either won't engage with at all, or won't take seriously.

[quote Innocenta]@EnidSpyton Either you wish to have a good faith discussion about the ethical issues involved, or you don't. It is your own choice - as in other threads, I am perfectly willing to engage with anyone who is speaking seriously. I won't waste my time on carping and nastiness. [/quote]
I've not been carping or nasty. I've asked you to explain why you think forced medical treatment for an entire population doesn't fit the definition of fascism. It's a question. I'd genuinely like to know the answer. I've explained my view on the ethics of the situation and why I think it's fascism. Now it's your turn.

Obfuscating and throwing out false accusations seems to be the order of the day on here for those who don't seem to be able to actually articulate what they find so objectionable about the perfectly well argued, evidenced and logical posts by people like @bumbleymummy. The thing is, when you're faced with people who can actually think for themselves, and do actually have genuine and logical concerns about the vaccines from a non conspiracy theory perspective, you don't know what to do. So instead you're just making up accusations to deflect from our questions asking you to explain why exactly you find what we're saying so objectionable.

It's you who doesn't want a discussion. I suspect it's because you don't actually have any logical answers.

Do not believe the scaremongering press! My neighbor works on CCU and the stats you’re hearing are total rubbish! There may be patients on ICU who’ve had a heart attack and have tested positive for COVID but they are in ICU because of their heart attack

[quote Innocenta]@1dayatatime You're welcome to challenge what I say. There is a big difference between disagreeing and challenging (which are fine), and the types of comment I either won't engage with at all, or won't take seriously. [/quote]
Glad to hear that you're open to challenge.

In which case (and as per @nojudgementhere previous request)
can you please please give a quote or a specific example or post of @bumbleymummy supposed misinformation?

Otherwise it just looks like toxic name calling bullying rather than a logical challenge.

Please explain how forcing people to have medical treatment they don't want isn't fascism.

I'm genuinely all ears

The above is not a polite, good faith response, and I think you know that very well.

I agree that some people have perfectly genuine reasons to disagree with things like vaccine mandates. That is a valid perspective - hence why I am willing to discuss it, and have done so on other threads.

But, no, not if you can't be civil. You'll have to decide if you want to keep being offensive - or if you do really want to hear my opinions on anything. Up to you.

@1dayatatime See my earlier post on engaging with anti-vaxxers.

Feel free to ask me a genuine question, if you have any.

@Innocenta

"do really want to hear my opinions on anything."

I absolutely 100% do want to hear your views, perhaps next time on other topics such as the lunar landings or the JFK assassination maybe?

But please please don't disappear as you are simply too entertaining to just go and would be greatly missed.

PS/ any chance of the specific example or quote of @bumbleymummy 's campaign of misinformation?

I've asked you to explain why you think forced medical treatment for an entire population doesn't fit the definition of fascism.
Of course it is fascism @EnidSpyton . It's the old saying, if something looks like a turd, smells like a turd ...
We are in an interesting situation now where lots of people who have gone along with the huge vaccine drive, the lockdowns, and so on now feel they have to go along with vaccine mandates. I get the feeling such people are doing mental gymnastics trying to justify their position but they also know deep down, these mandates are just wrong wrong wrong on so many levels, it's hard to know where to begin.

@Innocenta

Please explain how forcing people to have medical treatment they don't want isn't fascism.

I'm genuinely all ears

The above is not a polite, good faith response, and I think you know that very well.

I agree that some people have perfectly genuine reasons to disagree with things like vaccine mandates. That is a valid perspective - hence why I am willing to discuss it, and have done so on other threads.

But, no, not if you can't be civil. You'll have to decide if you want to keep being offensive - or if you do really want to hear my opinions on anything. Up to you.

I don't see anything impolite in what I've written. I've been perfectly civil. I'm an English teacher - my job is to analyse language. I'm looking for words with connotations of incivility in the two sentences you've posted, and I see none. I've used the word please and I'm said I'm genuinely open to whatever you have to say. So I'm struggling to see the textual evidence for what you've read into my words here.

Look, I'm an intelligent, over educated woman whose job is to educate other people. I really don't need your approval, and while I'm sure you've got plenty of interesting opinions, if you don't want to give them to me, I'll live.

I'm happy to have an intellectual debate with you on the nature of fascism, if you'd like one. It seems to me that you don't, though, otherwise you'd be having one with me, rather than trying to find ways to get out of it by accusing me of being all manner of things I'm not.

[quote Innocenta]@1dayatatime See my earlier post on engaging with anti-vaxxers.

Feel free to ask me a genuine question, if you have any. [/quote]
OK so let me get your logic straight.

You refuse to provide examples or posts or quotes showing that @bumbleymummy is an anti vaxxer because it is pointless as she is an anti vaxxer.

Op the data in the Sunday times article you are referring to is from July 21

@enidspyton nice user name, Enid! We must be cousins

I'm not sure how these debates shift anyone's opinions. Anti vaxxers are convinced they know something other people don't. It should be about weighing up risks, but it becomes about whichever fear looms largest.