90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

@Wrongkindofovercoat

I’d really like to know why those who’ve had covid and have recovered with no issues are still expected to have vaccines or boosters. How can this make sense?Why isn’t it a choice?

If you have recently had covid and fully recovered then you will have a limited amount of protection, if you are then vaccinated this boosts that protection, you still have a choice to be vaccinated or not, or do you mean you can show you have recovered from covid recently to be able to access things like they are doing in Germany ?

Because natural antibodies wane with time.

@icedpuddles, my comment certainly wasn't intended for you specifically. It was general. I have lost track of who said what to be honest.

If you have recently had covid and fully recovered then you will have a limited amount of protection

Switzerland have recently extended their proof of recovery option to 12 months. So it’s not that limited. So far people are having to have boosters after their first two vaccine doses 3-6 months later. Would you say that the vaccine provides a ‘limited amount of protection’?

So does immunity after vaccination @pianolessons1, hence the need for boosters, particularly in the most vulnerable groups.

We had a bit of a discussion at work today about vaccination status and life insurance, two people are in the process of buying houses. Would life insurance pay out if you are able to have a vaccine and chose not to, if you subsequently died of covid ? Most of us thought not, what do others think ?

Even if natural antibodies wane with time, reinfection isn’t likely to be worse unless their health has deteriorated drastically.
No one knows how long their protection will last and it may even be lifetime. But they’ve shown that they are not a burden to the healthcare system, so if that’s the main issue then vaccination should be a choice.

IHateFlies

I guess a lot depends on when they had their covid infection ? Was it confirmed ? Was it a case of I went ski-ing in Italy in February 2020, came home and felt really unwell therefore I have had covid or a couple of months ago I felt unwell, did a LFT which was positive and then a PCR which was also positive. Self isolated for ten days and am now tickety boo.

@bumbleymummy

If you have recently had covid and fully recovered then you will have a limited amount of protection

Switzerland have recently extended their proof of recovery option to 12 months. So it’s not that limited. So far people are having to have boosters after their first two vaccine doses 3-6 months later. Would you say that the vaccine provides a ‘limited amount of protection’?

So does immunity after vaccination @pianolessons1, hence the need for boosters, particularly in the most vulnerable groups.

Absolutely but as far as we know the natural immunity can wane quicker.

@IHateFlies, just interested to know why you feel the need to choose a vaccine? My DS21 caught Covid in freshers week September 20, and was mildly poorly, but still had two vaccinations this summer because he had a professional opportunity in the summer (one not to be missed) and everyone on the film set had to be vaccinated, or they weren't hired. In a world where people work from one contract to another, rather than as employees, you comply with the requirements or you remain unemployed. Surely you understand that if you work on short term contracts, like film sets, then it's your decision. You get the shots and work, or you don't... and don't.

@bumbleymummy that is the most up to date report on ICNAR for vaccinated/,unvaccinated I could find.

In a freelance industry, it's essential to have had vaccinations, and to be able to prove you've had them. Without them, you are not going to work.

@XingMing I know this is what’s happening and this is what I’m questioning. Who knows what future boosters requirement would be.
Seeing as so many have had covid now, should they be coerced into having vaccines and boosters if they don’t need them?

Report is dated December but info up to end July. Guess there must be a lag. Will be interesting to see updated version

[quote bumbleymummy]@ichundich flu is actually more contagious than previous covid strains. Not sure about delta/omicron though. And the hospitals have been ‘overwhelmed’ by flu for years - we still don’t threaten to deny people treatment or lock them down because they decided not to have the flu vaccine - even if they are more at risk.[/quote]
There is no flu pandemic. The last one was over 100 years ago. Most flu patients don't hog 90 or even "only" 70% of ICU beds for weeks.

Seeing as so many have had covid now, should they be coerced into having vaccines and boosters if they don’t need them?

Population of the UK is 68,394,590, number of people who have been confirmed as having covid 10,515,239.

At 22, and planning a career, DS would much rather have a vaccine record so he gets the experience needed for a career, than make a point.

[quote Lostinacloud]@JohnPearson thank you. It’s so good to hear from someone who actually works or has worked on these wards. Government and activist figures can easily be manipulated for whichever side of the argument they are on.[/quote]
We heard from two posters earlier in the thread who work in ITU.

This post is factually incorrect.

fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/?s=09

@pianolessons1 do you have a source for immunity after infection waning faster please? As I said above, Switzerland are recognising immunity after infection for 12 months. We know that reinfection is rare and that cases of reinfection are typically mild(ons). People are being offered booster vaccines 3-6 months after their second dose.

@XingMing how awful and completely nonsensical.

@Northsoutheastwest76 yes, if that’s July data, it isn’t exactly current. The new report will be interesting.

@ichundich the Swine flu pandemic was in 2009. We also had a nasty flu epidemic in the U.K. in 2017/2018 iirc that was very harsh on hospitals. Still no criticism/suggestions for denial of treatment for the unvaccinated.

@Twotone that article doesn't mention the figures for those patients in ICU ? Which is what the thread is ultimately about, who are the people in ICU ? they are unlikely to be the very elderly or frail, so who are they ?

[quote bumbleymummy]@pianolessons1 do you have a source for immunity after infection waning faster please? As I said above, Switzerland are recognising immunity after infection for 12 months. We know that reinfection is rare and that cases of reinfection are typically mild(ons). People are being offered booster vaccines 3-6 months after their second dose.

@XingMing how awful and completely nonsensical.

@Northsoutheastwest76 yes, if that’s July data, it isn’t exactly current. The new report will be interesting.

@ichundich the Swine flu pandemic was in 2009. We also had a nasty flu epidemic in the U.K. in 2017/2018 iirc that was very harsh on hospitals. Still no criticism/suggestions for denial of treatment for the unvaccinated.[/quote]
www.immunology.org/coronavirus/connect-coronavirus-public-engagement-resources/covid-immunity-natural-infection-vaccine

[quote Twotone]This post is factually incorrect.

fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/?s=09[/quote]
This link seems to be talking about hospitalisations, not ICU patients in particular though (not that I know the data for the latter; just pointing it out)

Confession: I do not get vaccine denial. There is a disease that could kill you or that you could transmit. There is a vaccine. It is clinically tested and, within reasonable parameters, I am told it is safe. I would
absolutely get the vaccine ASAP. I don't want the disease, I don't want to give it to anyone else (so I wear a mask in public spaces) and I hope that I am protecting others by not spreading it.

That is from June 2021. Obviously we know more now about waning immunity after vaccination and the need for boosters as well as having more data on the broadness and durability of immunity after infection.

@XingMing well certainly if you’re in a higher risk group then a vaccine that can reduce your risk is a great idea. If someone is already low risk and is happy with that risk and/or have already had the virus, they may think differently.

@bumbleymummy, you may think it awful and nonsensical, but I think it's sound commonsense.