90% of ICU patients admitted with COVID haven't been vaccinated.

[Desithebulldog]

Been listening to the news and they've said that 90% of the patients admitted to ICU with COVID haven't been vaccinated. For each patient admitted they are denying 10 other patients who need surgery their ICU beds. So currently (I'm sure there are more) there are 1,000 patients holding up 10,000 operations. I find this absolutely gobsmacking. Why, why, why would people not get vaccinated to help the NHS? They are on their knees and need all the help they can get. I know it's a personal choice but why are all the non-believers making it so hard for others to get a much needed operation? I just don't get it.

There was actually 1,645 deaths reported shortly after the vaccine between December 2020 and September 2021, they get recorded as this until they’re thoroughly investigated.

You can see how many of these were not linked.

@CaptSkippy, why are people on here so bloody rude! Can’t anyone give their point of view in difference to another poster without being insulting?

Anyway, I’m not sure why you think I live under a rock. It is entirely the fault of the government there aren’t enough staff.
The consistent failure to properly fund the NHS so that the staff aren’t all leaving in droves for a less stressful job is the government’s fault. The ridiculous cost of training for health sector jobs is the government’s fault and the low public sector pay and pension scheme for ordinary doctors and nurses and other healthcare professionals is the government’s fault. A vaccine for Covid will most certainly make no difference to staff levels and a vaccine mandate will worsen it so not sure who’s living under a rock.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

What are you even talking about?

@Lostinacloud I might wonder why people on here are so bloody dense and actually refuse to read people's full response. This can't be the government's fault, as the people to hire simply don't exist and you can't conjure them up out of thin air. No amount of money will fix this.

At the moment the overwhelming majority of the stress is caused by unvaccinated covid patients. They are overrunning the ICU's.

Lovely, how we are all spitting on the unvaccinated, instead of asking why funding has been cut to the bone so severely.

<strong>They are two entirely different conversations. Stop deflecting.</strong>

No, they are not. They are only unrelated for the swivel-eyed who look to point the finger and stay on the surface of this kind of debate.

Okay. Then please explain to me how, had NHS funding not been cut to the bone in your opinion, it would have stopped unvaccinated people currently accounting for 90% of Covid patients in ICU.

It's not the number of beds that's being debated here, it's the ratio of vaccinated to unvaccinated people needing them. That would be the same no matter how many beds we had.

Of course if we could magic up a few thousand extra ICU beds with extra funding it would help all those people currently waiting for surgery because 'their' bed has an unvaccinated patient in it. But it would do nothing to change the fact that 90% of covid patients requiring ICU treatment are unvaccinated. Which is exactly what this thread is about.

In an ideal world our NHS would have a bottomless pit of money but it doesn't. Unvaccinated people know this, and yet the answer to them and their ilk clogging up ICU beds is to say 'well if the government was less crap we'd have more beds.'

Maybe we would, but we don't. So let's try to work with what we have, shall we? Unvaccinated people could not only protect themselves from potentially serious complications of Covid but they could free up most of the ICU beds they are currently taking up, too.

After all, it seems that they are fully aware that there are not enough to go around.

To be honest, when I was trying to find the stats (as in, where did the OP 's figures come from) it was a bit of a trawl through the figures, and we haven't got a neat table yet.

However, there does seem to be a common narrative of ICU staff overwhelmed by the task of trying to look after unvaccinated patients, who tend to be relatively young and often are the sickest patients they have (hence the need for this particular kind of ventilation).

It sounds heartbreaking all round for a variety of reasons. Plus of course the knock on effects on people having major surgery cancelled etc.

I think the people would be there to hire and the current retention rate would be sufficient if there was proper investment in training, pay and proper staff levels so it wasn’t so demoralising to work in an NHS setting. I know a midwife that left earlier this year because of how fed up they were with the lack of staffing and unreasonable responsibilities placed upon them whilst at the same time paying for car parking to go to work and being paid less than a barman

I agree it was 70something just from AZ. However if everyone hadnt had it then more would have died jusr not those exact people probably . However i didnt agree with forcing AZ when there was pz. As clearly 40s at least should have had pz. For various reasons but including that is very young to die and they are highly likely to have kids at home still. Having a vax and waiting up to 4 weeks tp see if you have a reaction and then repeat. Then repeat for other parent.
I can see that some would also then be nervous about booster even with other vax

@howdiditcometothis666

9 cases in the U.K. once investigated as of 31 August 2021 -source office for National statistics

@Staryflight445

There has been 9.

I don’t know where you’re getting 37 from. Are you even looking at UK data?

9 deaths and 114,304,726 vaccines given are the uk stats.

As I told you the BBC article on the cause of vaccine induced blood clots "These clots, known as vaccine-induced immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia, have been linked to 73 deaths out of nearly 50 million doses of AstraZeneca given in the UK."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418123

[quote gogohm]@howdiditcometothis666

9 cases in the U.K. once investigated as of 31 August 2021 -source office for National statistics [/quote]
See above post, 73 deaths www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59418123

@Maskless

Imagine how much capacity we'd have in the NHS if the billions of pounds - and yes, I do mean billions, possibly tens of billions - of OUR money that the Govt has wasted on all the failed and pointless measures had instead been invested into the NHS and in recruiting and retaining staff?

Billions were wasted on those stupid Nightingale hospitals that never treated a single patient! Track and trace. Furlough. Billions of pounds out of our pockets, totally wasted, down the drain.

I remember retired doctors and nurses having their offer to return to work ignored or rejected.

But people prefer instead to blame those who are not triple jabbed!

Yet again, it's not either/or. Yes, I absolutely blame the government for their outright corruption and incompetence. But I can equally blame people who have decided not to take a very simple, free precaution that massively diminishes the risk of their ending up in ICU and taking a bed from another patient who desperately needs it.

*’ We have been far to tolerant of those who won't have the vaccine..(won't as opposed to can't)

It is fine to refuse to put anything into your body if it doesn't impact others..
but when countless emergency operations are being delayed with catastrophic effects, it is either epic selfishness or immense stupidity.

It is also immensely selfish to cite lack of investment in the NHS as we are in this pandemic NOW and each and every one of us should be doing all we can to either help or at least stay out of hospital.

Have the jab, take some responsibility.’*

This ^

@Userevermore

Do we know how many are overweight or obese, that is always kept quiet

What's the relevance of that? Not having the vaccine is stupid irrespective of your weight.

Is it only 90%? I read it was higher.

98% of the prenatal admissions are unvaccinated.

The government statistics state 9 deaths.

@howdiditcometothis666

There is a fair bit of misinformation relating to hospital admissions and statistics in hospital wards which need addressing. I''m currently abroad but have worked on the front line in ICU units during much of the pandemic and regularly liaise with colleagues currently in ICU units.

The two most important factors regarding risk and likelihood of both outcome and ending up in hospital in the first place for covid are age and obesity. An unvaccinated 40 year old who is a healthy body weight is more likely to avoid being hospitalised for covid than one with a BMI over 30 who is vaccinated. I would encourage anyone to make whatever lifestyle choices they can to facilitate trying to obtain a healthy weight as this is the most important factor in determining risk ( behind age) even above vaccination status.

The vast majority of people in hospitals are vaccinated which is to be expected as we have more vaccinated individuals in the population. The reason ICU units have a higher percentage of unvaccinated patients ( 21 days post 2nd jab) is we prioritise younger patients all things being equal for ICU beds which clearly have a higher percentage of unvaccinated patients in the younger age group due to either choice or simply not having yet had the jab with rollout etc. If there is a ward of 100 patients, 80 plus are likely to be over 60 with maybe 10- 20 younger patients- clearly younger patients are more likely to obtain a good outcome from intensive care treatment so will be admitted to ICU over the older age demographic creating a disproportionate percentage of unvaccinated patients in ICU. If the ICU holds 30 beds and 18 are younger unvaccinated patients they will represent the majority but clearly they aren't the majority group overwhelming the NHS. Most patients in hospital covid or not are in there due to either age or lifestyle choices contrary to vaccination status.

That said, I encourage everyone to get their vaccine particuarly those in the at risk category. The NHS has been close to being overwhelmed each winter for as long as I can remember so every little counts but the idea people should be forced to have a vaccine for the NHS when other factors play a much larger role in your chances of overstretching the NHS is disingenuous and shouldn't even be a discussion IMO. For the record I am double jabbed!

@Platax Because being overweight increases your risk of being seriously ill and dying of Covid. I used the NHS approved risk calculator and a loss of only 10 kgs decresed my risk by 30% . I am planning to lose another 9 kgs .

I just think this vilification of the relatively very few non vaccinated adults is wrong and deflects nicely from the real issue, which is the complete lack of proper investment and continued funding for the health and social care system. In this instance it is necessary to step back a bit and look at the wider picture and not just “fight the fire”.

Can we not do both?

Face it, if the government put billions of pounds into the NHS today it would make relatively little difference in the near future, because it takes time to recruit and train up staff, build hospitals, install equipment etc. Whereas if we managed to halve the rate of non-vaccination tomorrow, it's pretty clear that ICU occupancy by covid patients would reduce very quickly allowing beds to be used by non-covid patients who desperately need them.

[quote howdiditcometothis666]@Platax Because being overweight increases your risk of being seriously ill and dying of Covid. I used the NHS approved risk calculator and a loss of only 10 kgs decresed my risk by 30% . I am planning to lose another 9 kgs .[/quote]
So doesn't that make it all the more important to be vaccinated?

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER my elderly mother was on 3 pages worth of prescriptions. £3 per item would have crippled her.
My DH alone is on 7 items including an injectable that costs thousands per year. Some might say he is crippling the NHS despite not being overweight and only drinking occasionally. He already pays almost 5K a year in NI so some kind of Co pay arrangement over an above a prepayment would be crippling.

@milkyaqua

There's no desire to have a conversation there

I don't see you having any conversations on the covid boards about this, patiently responding to false claims, trying to get through to people with some facts - as many posters do diligently month after month, some since early 2020. I have lost my patience tonight.

In fact, your sole contribution to the discussion on Covid has been to decry the vaccines. I am surprised you have (or so you claim) resorted to getting vaccinated. Twice. As you said.

I have a full time job and am studying for an MA on the side. I don't have time to hang out on mumsnet having a go at people every night.

I am not comfortable with vaccine coercion. I am also not comfortable with how much research has been carried out specifically on women's bodies after vaccination. Many women have reported period irregularities (myself included) but there has been a dismissive attitude by the health authorities regarding this and a refusal to properly investigate - cos who cares about women and their fertility, hey? If you want 'data' which is always the cry when anyone says anything against vaccines, go to Caroline Criado Perez's website. She is an eminent feminist who has written a fantastic book called Invisible Women, about how women are routinely excluded from datasets around the world due to male bodies and experiences being considered the norm. She has been investigating the links with vaccines and periods herself as no one else is interested in doing it. You might find it enlightening.

That being said, I decided in the end to get the vaccine as to be honest, it makes my life easier to have it. Medically I don't believe I need it - I'm 35, have no underlying health conditions, and have already had Covid so I have the antibodies naturally - but I also love travelling, and so seeing as visiting the world is now impossible without the vaccine, I went ahead and got it.

I don't think I should have been put in that position. I don't agree with coercion and medical fascism. However, at the end of the day, I decided the benefits outweighed the risks. But for a lot of people, they feel the opposite - especially young, healthy people with existing antibodies - and I respect their right to make that choice.

I would also add, that I live in central London. The vast majority of people on the tube not wearing masks - or wearing them dangling under their noses - are overweight, elderly men. When they end up in ICU, even though they're vaccinated, should they still be treated? The vaccine isn't the only method we should be relying on to protect ourselves, and yet many of the vaccinated now think they can behave as they like. Not all vaccinated people are heroes, you know.

Please read the government data that the BBC news article kindly links you to.

Then kindly stop trying to correct those of us who have read the data correctly.

From those 74 cases, they’ve only linked 4 of them to actual vaccine deaths. The BBC article links you to the government pages where you can read about this info.

@howdiditcometothis666

@JohnPearson thank you. It’s so good to hear from someone who actually works or has worked on these wards. Government and activist figures can easily be manipulated for whichever side of the argument they are on.

@Staryflight445

The government statistics state 9 deaths.

@howdiditcometothis666

Well the BBC link to the Govt UK Health security on vaccine blood clots and it states under "Number of effected who die"

"A detailed review of all suspected cases is ongoing and based on the reports received by the MHRA as of 11 August, there were 73 fatal cases from the 411 events reviewed with an estimated overall case fatality rate of 18%. "

9 always looked ridiculously low when compared with fatality numbers from Australia who have vax a lot less than the UK .

Condolences to anyone reading this who has lost someone to the vaccine.