Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

The NHS staff are doing their jobs. Jobs they chose, that they are paid to do.

Well, and there's the blithe selfishness again. You think any of those people chose to basically be delivering healthcare in war zone conditions, getting PTSD from their jobs and doing huge amounts of extra hours just so they can be told by opinionated idiots that they don't know what they're talking about even as they are trying to stop the opinionated idiots from dying?

What job do you do, by the way? Do you think those are conditions you'd accept at your job?

NHS workers don't get paid fabulously, do they? That's one of the reasons the health service is under terrible strain.

No, people shouldn't just go up and insert themselves into your conversation, that is of course rude. But I cant feel sorry for NHS staff who are looking after sick people, and telling families that their loved ones are dying because that is exactly what they signed up for. Everyone in medicine and even care to an extent, knows that they will be putting themselves at higher risk of infection. I assume they weigh up that risk and still choose to do the job anyway.

But as an unvaccinated person, I’ve had lectures from vaccinated people, whilst minding my own business

How would they know though ? did they ask specifically about your vaccination status ? It isn't something that comes up in conversation routinely, or at least not in the conversations I have with random people, I have no idea about the vaccination status of most of the people I interact with on a daily basis, colleagues and family members possibly, but all the others, don't have a scoobies !

They know what the salary is, they know what the risks are and they still choose to do the job... So why should anyone feel sorry for them?!

My job is none of your business, same as yours.

But I don't expect people to think I'm a hero for doing it.

I'm not selfish. I'm a regular person, who actually can't remember the last time I visited my gp, bar my smear test which was over a year late due to covid. I really don't take up many NHS resources at all. And I'm unlikely to do so if I get covid. So I choose not to have the jab. Hey, you could say I'm reducing their workload because its one less person for them to jab :-)

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

I just wanted to say that I think the responses to your posts on this thread are horrible. I’m embarrassed for these people.

Obviously they don’t agree with you, but I intensely dislike the fact that they’re assuming you’ve got all your information from dodgy sources when you haven’t. You’ve clearly looked into this, weighed up the risks and benefits and decided for yourself what to do, just as they have.

I’m fully vaccinated myself, but I strongly believe that everyone should be allowed to make their own decision and not be flamed for it.

@frumpety

But as an unvaccinated person, I’ve had lectures from vaccinated people, whilst minding my own business

How would they know though ? did they ask specifically about your vaccination status ? It isn't something that comes up in conversation routinely, or at least not in the conversations I have with random people, I have no idea about the vaccination status of most of the people I interact with on a daily basis, colleagues and family members possibly, but all the others, don't have a scoobies !

People ask me all the time if I’m vaccinated and if I’m going to have my children vaccinated. It comes up in conversation a lot.

Some of the rudeness and spite here is quite astonishing.
It's such straw man characterising the invaccinated or not fully vaccinated as "thick as pigshit" anti-vaxxers.

The reality is a lot more nuanced. Complex medical histories, adverse reactions to the first shot, valid mistrust of the healthcare system, needle phobias etc.

People screeching abuse and flinging around accusations of selfishness to a group of people who probably have health issues or medical trauma is an absolutely awful look.

They get paid enough, they also have great discount schemes and sick pay, I have family in NHS so I know this. They also got a shed load of freebies for erm, doing their job, and a hell of a lot of them sat round doing not very much. Those tik tok routines took some practice didn't they. They didn't look exhausted. Of course some would have been, some would have been very busy, bu to know that there were loads who were bored silly because only covid mattered so they had nothing much to do.

And no, I didn't clap.

It's their job to treat people regardless. The same way they'd treat a smoker for lung cancer or send an ambulance to a drug addict overdosing. Any doctor starting to pick and choose who they treat probably shouldn't be one.

As a side note I do wish they'd stop saying ICU's are full of healthy young adults then showing scenes of obese individuals on oxygen/ventilators.

But I cant feel sorry for NHS staff who are looking after sick people, and telling families that their loved ones are dying because that is exactly what they signed up for.

Dear God, could you possibly just muster up just a tiny bit of compassion ? Not just for the people who 'signed up for' for being the bearer of the worst possible news, but also the poor bloody relatives who are having to go through the process via an electronic device ?

Thanks @BoPeeple I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, not trying to change any minds, just explaining why I choose not to be jabbed. I keep coming back because I don't think bullies should be allowed to push people out, and because it's important to be able to make our own choices.

I haven't once said I think people who get the jab are wrong. It's their choice, they have their reasons and that's fine. People I k ow and love made that choice. I made a different choice, along with a few others I k ow and love, and I'm just trying to explain why, since that's what the op asked.

Tried not to resort to rudeness or nastiness despite facing a fair bit on here. I really don't like the divide at all. Jabbed or unjabbed, we are all just people look g to do the right thing for ourselves and our families. Problem is I guess there are different opinions on what's right and some people don't want to accept that.

@Lostinacloud

I don’t consider myself an anti-vaxxer but if you’d genuinely like an insight into what someone is thinking regarding what it’d take to have the covid vaccine then I can offer you some ideas;

1. I had covid last October pre-jabs. Was nothing more than a 3/4 day hangover type illness. No need at the time to use any kind of healthcare facility and no reason to expect that on the off chance I caught it again that i’d need any healthcare assistance the next time.
2. I fundamentally object to being all but forced/coerced into injecting something into my body or that of my DC by the removal of travel or domestic freedom if I fail to comply.
3. Too many unknowns about the current vaccines, many reported side effects. Rushed approval. News that there were so few children involved in the 5-11 testing that they can’t be certain if it’s completely safe and so are setting up a 5 year POST approval safety follow up study! Simply not acceptable, pandemic or not.
4. Personally, I have ongoing menstrual cycle issues since the Pfizer jab. Nobody can solve or explain to me why I now have at least 2 cycles per month ever since I was vaccinated (100% regular as clockwork right up to the jab) and I am unwilling to have any further vaccines.
5. Not everybody of every age is vulnerable to covid, the vaccines don’t stop spread and so the argument for every last person to be continually vaccinated is weak.
6. We were told that vaccines were the way out and we’d get to live our lives again. That appears to be about as far from reality as you could get and now we are told that boosters are the way through. But what about when they wane?
7. Has there actually been any extensive testing of more than 2 doses?
8. Vaccination is a medical choice. Everyone should be entitled to freedom of choice and not discriminated against because of that choice. Just like a smoker isn’t denied treatment, an unvaccinated covid patient shouldn’t be denied treatment either. The vast majority of the population got vaccinated as asked and the number of unvaccinated really isn’t that large. Most age groups over 30 are close to 95% if not higher. Please note that some patients eligible for boosters are now considered unvaccinated unless boostered and vaccinated people are not counted as vaccinated unless they are 2 weeks both jabs. These two data collection processes skew figures.

Whether you agree with any of the above or not is irrelevant but you asked to understand the reasons behind vaccine hesitantly and here are some possible reasons.

Well said

@frumpety

But I cant feel sorry for NHS staff who are looking after sick people, and telling families that their loved ones are dying because that is exactly what they signed up for.

Dear God, could you possibly just muster up just a tiny bit of compassion ? Not just for the people who 'signed up for' for being the bearer of the worst possible news, but also the poor bloody relatives who are having to go through the process via an electronic device ?

I feel compassion for peoe who are ill and their families, have said as much upthread. But fact is, NHS staff DO know it will be part of the job. I actually started a midwifery course when I was younger but soon realised I wouldn't be able to deal with the sad side and so I left and went onto something entirely different. Others will stay anyway, and accept that's part of their role. Good on them. But I don't feel sorry for them, it's their choice.

There are lots of stupid people out there. Who mostly think they are free thinkers. Sadly most people have a poor understanding of science and maths esp statistics and so make bad decisions because of this. But still expect 5* medical treatment from the nhs.

And it shouldn't be through an electronic device, that's cruel. It's cruel and inhuman that peoe aren't allowed to be with rjeir loved ones in hospital for their last moments. That's another silly rule that shouldn't be there.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

And it shouldn't be through an electronic device, that's cruel. It's cruel and inhuman that peoe aren't allowed to be with rjeir loved ones in hospital for their last moments. That's another silly rule that shouldn't be there.

I don't think you understand the nature of this virus, or what is does to people.

I do though, and that's why I think it's all ott and I don't think the vaccine is necessary for me.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

They get paid enough, they also have great discount schemes and sick pay, I have family in NHS so I know this. They also got a shed load of freebies for erm, doing their job, and a hell of a lot of them sat round doing not very much. Those tik tok routines took some practice didn't they. They didn't look exhausted. Of course some would have been, some would have been very busy, bu to know that there were loads who were bored silly because only covid mattered so they had nothing much to do.

And no, I didn't clap.

Entirely agree, I didn't clap either.

When I saw people I know who are senior NHS staff - and who have been much praised for their 'heroic efforts' meeting up with large groups of friends and family to socialise (when we were still in lockdown or following rule of 6 etc, so in complete breach of all govt guidance) that for me spoke volumes.

I'm also not vaccinated. I don't feel for me that it's necessary. I don't discuss my vaccination status outside of my immediate family (all but 1 of whom are also unvaccinated). I have no desire to persuade people to my way of thinking, for me its a personal choice.

I social distance, I practice good hygiene. I work from home and rarely go anywhere other than the supermarket. I feel I present little risk to others.

And sorry to disappoint those disparaging the intellect of those who are unvaccinated, I hold an Oxbridge degree and am a senior professional.

@frumpety

The first Covid vacs made me so unwell I actually yellow carded it as an adverse reaction - I literally felt I had been poisoned.

What happened ? how did they effect you ?

I know some of my colleagues felt like poo for a couple of days after the vaccine, but no-one needed to seek medical advice/treatment, saying that though, nurses tend to fall into two camps, the only seeking help if something is literally falling off and seeking help because they imagine it might lead to something falling off because they have seen so many things fall off ! Personally I am somewhere in the middle, if its me and I am breathing, I am just fine, if it's someone I love I tend to err towards the something might fall off

Generally I am in the only seeking help if anything is falling off camp too!

Had AZ - sudden acute vomiting, feeling like a block of ice followed by hyperpyrexia and rigors, searing headache, feeling like I was literally going to pass out, clammy and grey. Wasn't just feeling like poo for a bit. I really think it felt like being poisoned. I NEVER want another reaction like that, hence I will be turning the booster down.

How would they know though ? did they ask specifically about your vaccination status ? It isn't something that comes up in conversation routinely, or at least not in the conversations I have with random people, I have no idea about the vaccination status of most of the people I interact with on a daily basis, colleagues and family members possibly, but all the others, don't have a scoobies !

One time a relative told one of her neighbours I wasn’t vaccinated so I was given a nice lecture on it from the neighbour who I didn’t know. I had told this relative I wasn’t vaccinated as she has diabetes and I wanted to give her the choice of whether to be in close contact with me.
I’ve also had unpleasant comments from certain family members.

As a vegan I’ve had similar lectures on why I should just eat meat, my crime was ordering a vegan meal on the menu. A whole half hour on how I’m helping to kill farming and peoples livelihoods etc.
While out with my friend with her 16 month old child, her son decided he wanted to breastfeed. A woman came up to her and told her that he was too old to be doing that and people didn’t want to see it.

Some people just can’t wait to unload their unwanted opinion on others.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Thanks *@BoPeeple* I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, not trying to change any minds, just explaining why I choose not to be jabbed. I keep coming back because I don't think bullies should be allowed to push people out, and because it's important to be able to make our own choices.

I haven't once said I think people who get the jab are wrong. It's their choice, they have their reasons and that's fine. People I k ow and love made that choice. I made a different choice, along with a few others I k ow and love, and I'm just trying to explain why, since that's what the op asked.

Tried not to resort to rudeness or nastiness despite facing a fair bit on here. I really don't like the divide at all. Jabbed or unjabbed, we are all just people look g to do the right thing for ourselves and our families. Problem is I guess there are different opinions on what's right and some people don't want to accept that.

Well said and I admire you for not being bullied into shutting up.

As you said, you’re not trying to change anyone’s mind. I’m vaccinated but am completely behind you.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

2 questions if I may. Do most people die if they get covid? Do most people who get covid need hospital treatment?

Do most people die if they smoke a cigarette? Do most people who smoke a cigarette need hospital treatment? Therefore, does this mean smoking is a good idea?

And yes, I'm comparing overall risk to one person from repeated behaviour to overall risk to a population from an unmitigated pandemic.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Not an anti vaxxer, but I won't have this jab because I don't believe it's necessary.

There is no way anyone can say that their experience of covid would have been worse if they hadn't had the jab.

It affects people differently, even a houseful of people positive at the same time can have different symptoms to each other, from none to really bad flu type... Whether jabbed or unjabbed. There is no way at all of knowing how it will affect you until you get it.

How many on here say they have been really unwell despite being jabbed? And how many others say they sailed through despite not being jabbed, whether through choice or lack of opportunity before jab rollout? It's lucky dip. But with the odds of recovering so high then no, I don't see a need for the jab.

As for hospital treatment, no I don't intend on seeking treatment. Its highly u liked I'd need it. Covid was downgraded as comparable with flu. I don't get a flu jab either, and haven't ever needed hospital for that so don't see why covid would be any different. Humans have immune systems to deal with illnesses, it's their job.

You didn’t really answer the question- if you needed ICU tx would you accept?

What about if here was an outbreak of Ebola? Would get a jab against that?

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

I spend a good portion of my working life giving care to people who are in their last weeks/days of life, it is a fundemental part of my role and it is a bloody privelege to be part of that. You realised early on, that you would struggle with that 'sad' side of giving care and I respect you for that, not everyone is cut out for it. We are not robots though , each death effects us as human beings, as soon as they don't , people should be looking for another job, so lets not pretend it as easy as 'signing up for the job' otherwise you would be doing it.