Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

But @Mischance, whilst incredibly sad, there are always stories of young people taken too soon and leaving behind children and that is how life will always be. Nobody is invincible and life is full of risks. It is up to you which ones you take. If they pay off great, if not, it becomes a tragic story but if nobody took any risks in life then I’d argue that it was no life to live.
A 40 year old risks getting in a car and driving on a motorway may have a fatal crash. A 40 year old risks having a covid vaccine and may have a fatal blood clot. No matter how rare, risks will always exist and must be weighed up against the benefits.

Fox you say the booster raises protection to near 95% and I've seen that figure elsewhere too. Genuinely wondering how that works, if most people's natural protection from death is around 99% anyway without a jab?

Blue, people are being so unnecessarily rude to you for answering in good faith a question posed. You have given fair and reasoned responses to an avalanche of quite frankly ridiculously rude responses. People can disagree, that's fine, people can challenge others in their views but people seem to have forgotten societal etiquette of not being complete ignorant arseholes to people with differing views.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Not an anti vaxxer, but I won't have this jab because I don't believe it's necessary.

There is no way anyone can say that their experience of covid would have been worse if they hadn't had the jab.

It affects people differently, even a houseful of people positive at the same time can have different symptoms to each other, from none to really bad flu type... Whether jabbed or unjabbed. There is no way at all of knowing how it will affect you until you get it.

How many on here say they have been really unwell despite being jabbed? And how many others say they sailed through despite not being jabbed, whether through choice or lack of opportunity before jab rollout? It's lucky dip. But with the odds of recovering so high then no, I don't see a need for the jab.

As for hospital treatment, no I don't intend on seeking treatment. Its highly u liked I'd need it. Covid was downgraded as comparable with flu. I don't get a flu jab either, and haven't ever needed hospital for that so don't see why covid would be any different. Humans have immune systems to deal with illnesses, it's their job.

Could not have said it better myself...

And on the non NHS treatment because you make a personal choice about your body... where does it end... higher than recommended BMI ... no treatment, higher intake of alcohol than recommended... no treatment, play a contact sport... no treatment, partake in a hobby considered high risk such as cycling or horse riding... no treatment?!!

As for "anti-vaxers" begging to be jabbed on their death bed.... I would take this kind of MSM reporting with a pinch of salt... these are the same media outlets that used actors to play Covid patients!!

Replying on behalf of my DP. I'm not an anti'vaxxer I have simply made the decision not to take the vaccine. I expect to be treated in ICU because I pay tax and insurance. There's nothing that will make me take the vaccine.

I’m being rude, my dear, because this thread is full of ill-informed people who seem to think that they should be protected from the consequences of their opinions.

Irredeemably selfish and uncaring about others’ deaths is definitely not a good look, I tell you.

You’re entitled to your opinion, however idiotic it is. You’re not entitled to have that opinion not made fun of if it’s ill informed and a bit stupid.

As I said earlier, it’s all individual decision but no personal responsibility. I’m as entitled to tell you your opinion is wrong and stupid as you are entitled to hold it. No one is obliged to coddle the stupid.

If you don’t like that, then maybe this forum is not for you.

Most people seriously ill with Covid have been vaxxed.
Israel and Gibraltar have had a very high vax uptake, but still many cases of corona.
Media and gov still promoting vaccine as if it is the second coming. Got to get the digital ID going.
Sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative OP.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Fox you say the booster raises protection to near 95% and I've seen that figure elsewhere too. Genuinely wondering how that works, if most people's natural protection from death is around 99% anyway without a jab?

As I said earlier, if you think this is some kind of gotcha you are sadly mistaken.

Please go and do some basic learning first before you say something so idiotic.

That's fine Fox, you are entitled to hold those views. I think you are ignorant and are only fuelling unnecessary division in society. You do you.

No-one gets treated in ICU because they’ve paid tax and insurance - that’s a truly idiotic thing to say. You only get an ICU bed if there’s one available and you will clinically benefit.

If there aren’t any ICU beds because there are too many people already in them, nobody pulls the plug on a pensioner just because you pay tax and insurance.

You just don’t get a bed.

So if there are loads of people already in ICU, it’s not just your individual decision not to have the vaccine that’s at issue. Because if everyone else does the same, you don’t get that ICU bed. And at that point there isn’t any way to go back in time and magically have the vaccine. 🤷‍♀️

I'm team @foxgoosefinch. However, I don't think anything is to be gained by trying to reason with the hard of understanding and ill informed, they are beyond it.

@HeyDugeesCakeBadge

That's fine Fox, you are entitled to hold those views. I think you are ignorant and are only fuelling unnecessary division in society. You do you.

What a load of old rubbish. If it makes you feel better then you can believe all that (you do you, honey!)

As I said, silly platitudes aren’t wisdom. Silly pearl clutching when confronted with the truth isn’t noble or wise. You only make yourself sound like an idiot who wants to take no responsibility for your actions, yet expects everyone else to indulge them and say it’s all okay and “valid”.

Life doesn’t work like that. You make the choices, don’t expect everyone else to coddle them and pretend they’re not selfish. That’s the behaviour of children, not adults.

@Incognito22333

Well I am not an anti vaxxer but I would still want a 22 year old healthy unvaccinated person treated in ICU in priority to a 95 year old very fragile fully vaccinated/boosted person… the systems/ethical framework for making those choices are already in place.

Surely you would agree that a 55 year old diabetic obese man with a cancer history refusing a vaccine is a different issue for society than a 16 year old with no health conditions refusing a vaccine? You really cannot generalise.
My personal view is that Covid vaccines should be mandatory for anyone over 50. Everyone else should be strongly encouraged to have them too.

My personal view is that Covid vaccines should be mandatory for anyone over 50. Everyone else should be strongly encouraged to have them too

The problem with that is that there is still enough incidence of serious illness amongst the younger and thick as pigshit parts of the population to impact healthcare, putting the rest of us at risk of not being able to access treatment for other illnesses.

I am not an antivaxxer but I want to contribute to this by reflecting the question back - do you think alcoholics should expect to be treated, or heavy drinkers, or regular drinkers... or smokers, or people with an unhealthy BMI, or people who do not do regular exercise... or what about people who do not have a healthy diet with regular fruit and veg - or people who self harm.. like literally - antivaxxers are highly exasperating at times but we cannot start to judge who is worthy of treatment because if we go down this slippery slope not one of us will be 'worthy'.

The doctor in this article is treating covid patients in Intensive care - 75% of whom are unvaccinated. She believes everyone is entitled to treatment even if they're unvaccinated BUT points out the impact this is having on the NHS with critically ill unvaccinated people with covid taking places in intensive care that other sick people could have used:
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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a9a8f914-4f58-11ec-9043-2aa4c0c21cd8?shareToken=cfa957dffc05ee8fba6606b7ea72bc04

@foxgoosefinch

therefore I haven’t booked my booster and I’m glad I didn’t have it given the new strain it doesn’t protect against.

Given that nobody knows yet whether or not it does, I find that ridiculous.

The dominant variant here is still Delta and the data shows that the booster raises protection to near 95%.

It’s hardly ridiculous! So if I’d had it two weeks ago when I originally booked it and then in a couple of months time there’s 2-3 new strains… shall I just have another and keep having them?!

No there’s no proof it doesn’t protect against it but also nothing to say it does!!

Wow fox, your nastiness only makes you look bad, not me. I'm not idiotic but if you want to think so that is absolutely your right. I guess it's your right to be nasty too, and I'm sure you accept the consequences of that are you looking bad.
Dugee thank you, appreciate it :-)

And fox this forum is for everyone, even the great unjabbed, a bit like the NHS :-)

What I find depressing about some anti-vaxxers is their absolute need to be right. I was quite happily doing my job the other day when a relative asked me if I had been vaccinated, I work in the NHS and have had all three jabs, so I said yes. I initially thought he was asking because he was concerned about his frail elderly relative and had heard that some staff still aren't vaccinated.
According to him, by 'submitting' to having the vaccine, I am putting undue pressure on him to have it and that I was obviously judging him for not having had it. I didn't and don't ever bring the subject up in patients homes, he did and then didn't like my response which was a simple 'yes, I am fully vaccinated ' .
I then had to listen to a full ten minutes of 'conspiracy theories are us', whilst treating the patient who is also fully vaccinated whilst making non judgemental noises in response.
I would have preferred to spend that time assessing the patient, chatting to them about the things they are interested in, discussing the book they recommended I read, general stuff, but no, Mr Relative wanted to spend that time, haranguing me for being vaccinated.

Fox, I accept my choices are selfish as are most others when taking the vaccine. You are protected, why care about me? If I die of COVID and there are no ICU beds for me then fine. As it is, it is highly unlikely and I'd like to take my chances.

I won't be bullied by you or anyone else, you can think I'm stupid for not wanting the vaccine, you can call me stupid but you are doing nothing to change my mind or the mind of others by doing so. You just make yourself look rather silly. Maybe you should go and get a cup of tea as you do seem quite worked up.

I have had my 2 jabs (NHS nurse) quite early on but have refused my booster. I have also not let my 13 year old DD get a jab.

Don't label me "anti-vaxx" I'm definitely not as I have had my initial ones and DD had all her childhood vacs etc. Really annoys me when people use that label.

The first Covid vacs made me so unwell I actually yellow carded it as an adverse reaction - I literally felt I had been poisoned.

Don't want to go through that again and see no point in DD having a drug for a disease that has an incredibly small chance of harming her. The average 13 year old is more likely to die on the roads than get killed by Covid. Why would I then make her take a medicine she doesn't need? What if she reacts as badly as I did - what is the point in putting her through that for a vaccine against a disease that is vanishingly unlikely to harm her?

Doesn't make me anti-vaxx, but just makes me glad I can use informed consent to say no.

The first Covid vacs made me so unwell I actually yellow carded it as an adverse reaction - I literally felt I had been poisoned.

What happened ? how did they effect you ?

I know some of my colleagues felt like poo for a couple of days after the vaccine, but no-one needed to seek medical advice/treatment, saying that though, nurses tend to fall into two camps, the only seeking help if something is literally falling off and seeking help because they imagine it might lead to something falling off because they have seen so many things fall off ! Personally I am somewhere in the middle, if its me and I am breathing, I am just fine, if it's someone I love I tend to err towards the something might fall off

@frumpety

What I find depressing about some anti-vaxxers is their absolute need to be right. I was quite happily doing my job the other day when a relative asked me if I had been vaccinated, I work in the NHS and have had all three jabs, so I said yes. I initially thought he was asking because he was concerned about his frail elderly relative and had heard that some staff still aren't vaccinated. According to him, by 'submitting' to having the vaccine, I am putting undue pressure on him to have it and that I was obviously judging him for not having had it. I didn't and don't ever bring the subject up in patients homes, he did and then didn't like my response which was a simple 'yes, I am fully vaccinated ' . I then had to listen to a full ten minutes of 'conspiracy theories are us', whilst treating the patient who is also fully vaccinated whilst making non judgemental noises in response. I would have preferred to spend that time assessing the patient, chatting to them about the things they are interested in, discussing the book they recommended I read, general stuff, but no, Mr Relative wanted to spend that time, haranguing me for being vaccinated.

I was having lunch (outside, with masks) last week with he friend I mentioned at the start of the thread who's a NHS consultant, has been on Covid wards most of the pandemic. (She's also now having therapy and EMDR for the awful things she's experienced during the worst of it).

Some bloke across the terrace was listening to us chat and came over specially to ask if she was a medic, then inserted himself into the conversation to tell us about his anti-vaccine theories, at great length.

She was a lot more polite to him than I would have been tbh.

But honestly, the catsbumface disapproval of anyone who thinks it's "rude" to point out the follies of the whole antivax lot - well your stage outrage pales in comparison with the experiences of staff, patients and families who actually have had to live with the worst of the pandemic every day; who have to tell families their loved ones are dying, who had to spend days working trussed up in PPE not seeing their own families, getting PTSD from the whole thing.

So forgive me for pointing out - rather strenuously - that you are basically going round hypocritically expecting others to take the brunt of your decisions, and then being faux shocked when people point out that it's pure ill-informed vacuity.

But as an unvaccinated person, I’ve had lectures from vaccinated people, whilst minding my own business. Some people just like to tell others that they’re right and anyone else is wrong. It’s not just vaccination, people do this about various things. Thankfully most people just mind their own business and respect peoples rights, regardless if they agree or not.

The NHS staff are doing their jobs. Jobs they chose, that they are paid to do.