Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

@youkiddingme what about places like Israel and Gibraltar, where almost everyone is vaccinated but they are having big outbreaks still? It doesn't look like its reduced the transmission rate there. So they say have more boosters, where does it stop? How many do people want to take in a year?

@user52673882829

What has she actually said that is wrong though?

This is the kind of thing I'm asking about. I am not for one second saying the no jab no treatment should be the option, nor will it be, but when anti covid vaxxers read articles like this (and there have been few) does it not make you reconsider?

It’s very sad, but it doesn’t change the fact that my chance of needing hospital treatment or dying is very, very small.
I know an elderly person who recovered quickly from covid before there was a vaccine. I doubt that makes you think you shouldn’t bother having the vaccine.

Honestly I don’t care if you take the vaccine or get covid but can you stay away from those who do and wear masks etc.? It’s only the decent thing to do since you care so much about personal choice and it’s their choice to protect themselves from the virus.

How is vaccination status being measured by hospitals? As far as I understand, if you are less than two weeks or more than six months post two innoculations, then you are classed as unvaccinated? Which must leave a lot of people who have had one jab, or two but not the booster, being classed as unvaccinated?

@user52673882829

Honestly I don’t care if you take the vaccine or get covid but can you stay away from those who do and wear masks etc.? It’s only the decent thing to do since you care so much about personal choice and it’s their choice to protect themselves from the virus.

You see, this is where you fall down. She isn’t any more likely to be carrying Covid than you are.

@GodIsAVegan I think that is what annoyed me about Mr Conspiracy Relative so much, 99% of the time no-one asks, if they do I let them know I have had all three jabs, some people have very good reason to ask and I have no issue letting anyone who asks, know I am vaccinated. The only time I can think it would be relevant for me to ask, is if I am seeing someone who is covid positive, I might check if they have been vaccinated and check they or anyone caring for them, know what 'worrying' symptoms to look out for and who to contact for help if they occur.

[quote user52673882829]@BoPeeple it’s absolutely correct to tell people when they are wrong, it’s actually how humans make progress and stop the spread of misinformation[/quote]
OK, user, you're wrong. I haven't made silly comments. There, now you can make progress :-)

OK, yes, tell people if they are wrong, yes, it's what we do as parents isn't it. But I'm not wrong. I'm not wrong to have these reasons to choose not to take a vaccine. You're not wrong for having whatever reasons you have for taking/ not taking the vaccine. It's personal choice, we can weigh up the risks and choose. That's as it should be. It shouldn't be one side making life more and more difficult for the other to force them to do what they see as best.

You’re right Blue, the majority of people recover from covid with no complications and the majority have covid vaccines without complications. There are exceptions though.
I know one person of 50 who died of covid and one woman of 40 who died of a blood clot a couple of days after having a covid vaccine. I know lots of people who’ve had covid and recovered without complications and lots of people who’ve had covid vaccines and are fine.
It should be a personal choice.

[quote BoPeeple]@user52673882829

What has she actually said that is wrong though?[/quote]
You haven’t answered this.

You see, this is where you fall down. She isn’t any more likely to be carrying Covid than you are.

Well, that's wrong.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Fox you say the booster raises protection to near 95% and I've seen that figure elsewhere too. Genuinely wondering how that works, if most people's natural protection from death is around 99% anyway without a jab?

Taking this at face value:

It's really useful in circumstances like these to put some actual numbers in.

Let's say we do a trial on 50,000 people. 25k get the vaccine, 25k don't. These will be matched groups - for age, sex and known risk factors.

Imaginarily 5,000 of them get Covid.

If 2,500 were vaccinated and 2,500 weren't, then we'd say the vaccination wasn't effective.

If 500 were vaccinated, and 4500 weren't we'd say the vaccine was (4500-500)/4500 = 88% effective. You'd be nearly 10x less likely to catch symptomatic Covid having been vaccinated.

In this instance it's actually 95% effective. So more like 4,750 in the unvaccinated group and 250 in the vaccinated.

You can then apply the same logic to deaths.

The above (statistical work on trial data) also tells us that we know that the vaccine (not just people choosing to be healthier/a milder strain) is what has reduced the death rates - because we have vaccinated Vs unvaccinated comparison groups.

Finally, to address another of the points you made about a low death rate: if a disease spreads to the point that everyone either catches it or is vaccinated you have essentially a 100% chance of catching the disease over a given time period (X). That means over that time period you then have (using your numbers) a 1/100 chance of dying of the disease.

Yet by taking the vaccination you can actually reduce that to a 1/2,000 chance. If we pretend we have no idea what Covid is but that we know going out and doing things we enjoy has a 1/100 chance of killing us but through 3 injections et can cut that 20 fold, most people would think that sounded like a pretty good deal.

That's the same logic we use for seatbelts. (And, incidentally childhood vaccinations - measles only has a death rate of 1/100 ish, you don't see many people suggesting measles vaccinations are a bad idea.)

@milkyaqua

You see, this is where you fall down. She isn’t any more likely to be carrying Covid than you are.

Well, that's wrong.

I don't believe it is wrong? If it is, and I'm more likely to have covid as I'm unvaxxed, then aren't I also apparently more likely to have symptoms? That's what the vaccine is meant to do isn't it, reduce symptoms & death? So if I have symptoms I'd stay home and not pass it about. Obviously I could have covid with hardly any symptoms and pass it unknowingly, but that doesn't make me evil or selfish any more than someone who had the jab, got covid with few symptoms and passed it on unknowingly in the same way!

“ You see, this is where you fall down. She isn’t any more likely to be carrying Covid than you are.”

Have you even done any research on vaccination against covid?

Here’s a link to start you over, you’re welcome

www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half

I thought the Pfizer trial was only testing booster doses against double vaccinated people though, not unvaccinated?

Also RTFT if you want to know why pinky is wrong or I suppose you won’t understand as you share the same dumb opinions

The vaccinated/unvaccinated death rates are a bit skewed though aren't they, I read that the time frame used was from the start of the jab roll out to summer time, I think, so for that time there would've been more people around who were unjabbed. Is there a true comparison from more recent times where most people are jabbed?

I don't believe it is wrong?

It is wrong. I didn't say you were evil or selfish, just that what that poster said was wrong.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

The vaccinated/unvaccinated death rates are a bit skewed though aren't they, I read that the time frame used was from the start of the jab roll out to summer time, I think, so for that time there would've been more people around who were unjabbed. Is there a true comparison from more recent times where most people are jabbed?

Sorry Blue, was that aimed at me?

I'm happy to try and answer but I'm not totally sure what the question is so you might need to reword/quote the bit of my (incredibly long, sorry!) post.

Name change fail above, I'm MoneyThings.

[quote user52673882829]“ You see, this is where you fall down. She isn’t any more likely to be carrying Covid than you are.”

Have you even done any research on vaccination against covid?

Here’s a link to start you over, you’re welcome

www.gov.uk/government/news/one-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-can-cut-household-transmission-by-up-to-half[/quote]
Do you get all your information from the government website or do you read independent studies/research?

Also, just on yet another thing, Ebola is actually much harder to contract than Covid. It has a high mortality rate, but can only be transmitted by direct contact with body fluids - it is easy to protect yourself against it unless you are medical staff. It is not airborne and has a much lower transmission rate than measles or Covid, say.

It’s also a big, funny shaped slow-mutating virus that is very stable compared to a coronavirus. Very different to Covid. The risk of getting it during an outbreak would be much less than Covid. It’s on the high infectivity list because haemorrhagic fevers require very specialist treatment by medical staff and specialist protection.

Your risk assessment is not accurate if you think you’d be in more danger from Ebola. You might think so based on fear and not much knowledge. But whatever your opinion, you’d still be wrong about the facts of relative risk.

No it was for gladioli but its a genuine question so yeah of you have the answer that would be good. I realise it's a bit jumbled, am getting tired 😂 will try to find a link, but I thought I read that they wereeasurimg how many vaxxed versus unvaxxed had died but were doing so from the beginning of the rollout, so saying that during that time period more unvaxxed died, when that would obviously be the case since at the start hardly anyone was jabbed. Is that better?! I'm not looking for an argument at all by the way, it's a question, that's all, if they now have info that shows that more unvaccinated die than vaccinated that would be interesting. Although writing that I see there's a problem that now most are jabbed, so it would show more jabbed die.... Tired ramblings now!

@GodIsAVegan

Kendodd

It’s not free.

As for medics being pissed off. My friend used to be an A&E nurse and she said lots of the staff used to get pissed off at people that came in with various preventable injuries obtained doing stupid things or when drunk. I also have a close relative who is a doctor, she says that if you’re judgemental, medicine isn’t the career for you.

Exactly my thoughts! Don't work in that sector if you keep getting pissed off at people. End of the day it's your job