I have to have the vaccine or I loose my job

[wingingmumlife]

I am absolutely prepared to get flamed for this but I am really worrying.

I am 22 year years old, healthy and unvaccinated (by choice).

I am not anti-vax, I have had every single vaccine from being a child to now and my daughter is up to date with all of hers too.

I work in dentistry and myself and 4 other colleagues have been told we have to be fully vaccinated by April 2022 otherwise, we lose our jobs.

I just can't believe it has come to this. I feel like my human rights have been taken away. I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I am a big believer in science but as a genuine question ... Can someone please tell me why this vaccine is being pushed so much to the point where soon we probably won't be able to even go into a restaurant without having this vaccine?

I have to wear AGP PPE every single day for every single patient but this still isn't enough?

I test myself every single day, but this still isn't enough?

Can someone please help it make sense to me? That is a genuine question.

Im not looking for an argument and I'm not wanting anyone to tell me "how stupid I am" I just want this to make sense.

For anyone wondering why I haven't had the vaccine - the main reason being, I have severe health anxiety, ironic I know since most would think I'd jump for the vaccine, but at the moment I'm more scared of this vaccine then I am of catching Covid itself.

I just feel sick to my stomach at the thought of not having a job unless I have this vaccine, it really doesn't sit well with me but everyone on here seems to be supporting it?

OP I am actually pro compulsory vaccination for NHS staff but given you have a history of health anxiety doesn’t this count as a medical exemption?

I know this has a lot of replies now, but my perspective.

I still got covid whilst wearing a full level 4 powered, positive pressure ventilated respirator suit during an AGP (battery failed mid procedure)

Most PP3 protrects you, not the patient - for example the 3m masks have inspiratory filters, but the expiratory valve on the front of the mask vents directly into whoever you are facing, and is unfiltered.

If you're doing AGPs daily, you're at a significantly higher risk of being exposed to covid than a member of the public.

Can somebody provide some studies RE vaccinated/unvaccinated transmission rates? Having Googled it, the most widely reported study done in the UK that keeps popping up shows that there is virtually no difference at all in transmission rates...

“Although fully vaccinated people were less likely to contract an infection, when they did — what’s known as a breakthrough infection — they can transmit the Delta variant at a similar level as unvaccinated people. Researchers found that 25 percent of household contacts exposed to a fully vaccinated person in the household contracted an infection themselves. Of those exposed to an unvaccinated household member, 23 percent contracted an infection.
“Breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people can efficiently transmit infection in the household setting,” wrote the study authors.

I don't think you are being unreasonable and understand your frustration and anxiety. I felt anxious getting my first vaccine to the point of almost passing out. I was fine and the second time was better. Not too many symptoms after apart from tiredness and a little bit shivery which didn't last too long. All good now. I would go and get it and keep your job.

I have health anxiety…That’s why I’m booked in for the booster jab.

Dental nurses don't get paid very well, maybe look into other career options.

@Grabmygran

OP I am actually pro compulsory vaccination for NHS staff but given you have a history of health anxiety doesn’t this count as a medical exemption?

Sorry, but I think she is in the wrong profession.

@wingingmumlife OP I just wanted to offer support.

I am sure you have done your research, and know that as a healthy young person your covid risk is tiny. Also that long-term health impacts from the vaccines are unknown. On your position I fully agree that testing makes far more sense than vaccination.

The pressure you are under is appalling and I hope you can keep your job. I too fail to understand the madness we are living in.

Perhaps if you don’t trust modern medicine then it’s best that you aren’t allowed to work in a healthcare related job. As a HCP you need to put your patients safety first and you clearly aren’t capable of doing that.

However now that patients are pretty much all vaccinated, 93% of healthcare staff are vaccinated and we are still wearing PPE and doing LFTs I cannot see why staff who have principled objections to the vaccine should be forced. We are not in the same scenario now as when lots of deaths were occurring.

You take LFTs so that you can isolate. We are still in a scenario where there are staff shortages because of positive covid tests and covid is still interfering with patient care in hospitals.

By April the vaccines will have been in use for well over a year, and they will have been taken by millions and millions of people.

There always be some NHS staff who can't take the vaccine for health reasons, but what would be the principled reason to not take a vaccine?

"I don't want to" isn't a principle, it's a preference.

"I should be able to avoid having a vaccine because most other people have had one" is very much not a principled stand, particularly given that at the moment it seems as though vaccination will be an ongoing process.

I did not go in and sign a contract that says if there is a pandemic we must take a vaccine that is still under clinical trials

Are people STILL trotting out this line? it is classic anti-vax twisting of the truth and has been thoroughly debunked many times on MN.

OP I do think people should have the choice, which they do, but all choices come with consequences. You will still be able to work, just not in dentistry. I think that is fair enough, dental treatment involves such close contact.

However, it is telling that the English government is happy to let NHS staff work through the winter crisis unvaccinated, instead of putting its money where its mouth is now. Which it knows it can't do.

@Grabmygran

OP I am actually pro compulsory vaccination for NHS staff but given you have a history of health anxiety doesn’t this count as a medical exemption?

The fact that OP has had other vaccines might make that a bit tricky.

April can't come soon enough. When every one one of my unvaccinated NHS colleagues gets covid they are off for weeks on end, two of them have been off for nigh on 6 months with long covid leaving the rest of us to run ourselves ragged doing their jobs for them because we can't recruit any staff.
I'll be glad when we don't have any more on them come April.

The OP will have chosen that career path fully informed of the requirements and this particular vaccination wasn’t one of them.

How many of us start off in a career thinking it will remain unchanged for 30 or 40 years whilst we continue to practise in it? Pretty much nobody, I would guess. Any sphere I've worked in has changed with some frequency. You pretty much have to adapt to it, or chose to leave.

OP I do have some sympathy with what you're going through. I have depression and anxiety. I know you can't magic them away, or just get over them. However, you do have choices here, even though they're limited and it could bring about a change you don't want. Harsh as it is, very often that's life. I was pushed out of one career, managed to set up in another by dint of very hard work and then got pushed out of that by malicious whistleblowers. Life does not work out how we plan it.

The fact that they're waiting until April 1 may be that by then they need to reduce their PPE budget and vaccination would be a good way to do that. It won't be a purely clinical decision. I would see what counselling and therapy is available to you via the workplace and use the next couple of months to talk it through with somebody, thoroughly work out your options and take it from there.

My thought with something that makes me very anxious is that it can be better to face up to it now than have it hanging over me indefinitely. I appreciate this may not be possible for you, but worth considering?

Can somebody provide some studies RE vaccinated/unvaccinated transmission rates? Having Googled it, the most widely reported study done in the UK that keeps popping up shows that there is virtually no difference at all in transmission rates...

I would also like to know this. If you’re going to coerce thousands of people into having a vaccine they don’t want and exacerbating staff shortages you’d think you’d be damn sure that the data on transmission is clear that by being unvaccinated they are putting people at risk. I’d bet money that unvaccinated people are probably more aware and careful with hand washing and PPE too when working with the vulnerable. Lots of people have thrown all measures out of the window since having their jabs.

Also that long-term health impacts from the vaccines are unknown

This thread is becoming pure anti- vax buzzword bingo!

You have three choices.
1 - get the vaccine and only that
2 - get the vaccine and get treatment for your anxiety
3 - don't get the vaccine but then you're out of work and your anxiety will probably increase while you're off work.

Also, please don't use Dublin as an example of what you have to do to be able to do anything social:
Look at Dublin, Ireland, you can't do anything over there unless you've had both vaccines. Want to visit a restaurant? Have to have had both vaccines. Want to visit a cinema? Have to have had both vaccines? Want to go into a supermarket? Have to have had both vaccines.
There was and is a very high uptake of the vaccines in Ireland in general but we're hitting a 4th wave and have had new restrictions implemented by the Government because the small numbers of the population who for whatever reason are not vaccinated are taking up ICU beds and as a result the general day to day services in our Health service are shelved to people who have been waiting months if not years for treatment.
Yes we show our Covid Vaccination Certificate if we want to go out and see a movie (this is new) or go to the theatre (this has been in since restrictions started to be lifted) but we don't if we want to get our hair done for example.
Yes we show our Covid Cert if we want to go out for a meal (where masks would make eating very very difficult and this is an airbourne virus)
We've been able to go to a supermarket if we wear a mask throughout the pandemic so I'm not sure where you got that information from.

Vaccination hugely decreases your chance of death. That's enough for me, but clearly not for others. And don't bother linking to random YouTube conspiracies about the death rate.

@Cam77 the answers in the first sentence you quoted. While vaccinated people can still catch covid they are less likely to catch it, so transmission then isn’t an issue. The question is what percentage of fully vaccinated people can have breakthrough infections. That study didn’t answer that and it was only 204 households included in the study.

However, it is telling that the English government is happy to let NHS staff work through the winter crisis unvaccinated, instead of putting its money where its mouth is now. Which it knows it can't do.

Exactly.

The Government are saying it’s fine for unvaccinated staff to work all through what is going to be a awful winter, no doubt high numbers of Covid and the associated hospital pressures, putting staff at risk with their health (burn out, stress, mental health) etc and then when it’s all over say, “Thank you for everything you did when we were at absolute crisis point to make sure everyone could receive the treatment they needed and the hospital could stay afloat, but now that it’s over we are going to fire you because you are a danger to others.”

How anyone can think this is ok is just beyond me.

Testing yourself every day for covid with lateral flow tests is a waste of time. Daughter thought she had covid and tested 3 days in a row using the LFT, and on the fourth day went to a covid testing clinic and the result was positive. People not having the vaccine are selfish, as their choice not to have it doesn’t just impact themselves, but affects others around them, especially when they work in an environment with potentially vulnerable people. Being vaccinated of course doesn’t mean you can’t get covid, but it does mean that you’re more likely to not be hospitalised or be seriously ill with it, plus transmission is reduced as the virus isn’t as active for as long as it is if you are vaccinated. I really think that a lot of people won’t have the vaccine due to wanting to rebel against authority, especially amongst the young.

I’d bet money that unvaccinated people are probably more aware and careful with hand washing and PPE too when working with the vulnerable.

You think there is a choice not to wash hands or wear PPE?

@userperuser being on long term sick wouldn’t prevent dismissal action and SSP isn’t great as others have noted.

[quote Littlegoth]@userperuser being on long term sick wouldn’t prevent dismissal action and SSP isn’t great as others have noted.[/quote]
It depends on your employment.

I can have 6 months fully paid sick leave then I’m insured longer term at 80% full pay and I’d like to see an employer prove you don’t have severe anxiety and depression.

@User3443525643

OP I have to be brutally honest with you. My husband is a dentist and is in the process of letting two dental nurses go who refuse to get vaccinated. All his colleagues are dealing with similar issues but are more relieved that it's official as they have legal basis rather than being a grey zone. No dentist wants to fire staff and have to restructure their team. However Covid is a once in a century disaster that is bigger than any individual person or business. There are too many risks that come with unvaccinated staff. Vaccinated staff and doctors wearing PPE is basically a 0% transmission chain which is crucial for the entire medical field post-covid. Unvaccinated staff with PPE will always have a slightly higher absolute risk. Sending unvaccinated staff for regular PCR testing reduces that risk but is costly and time-consuming and logistically difficult for a small team.

In your particular case, your problem is health anxiety and not the compulsory vaccine. I have emetophobia and there are situations where I feel absolutely triggered by certain things (eg lack of hygiene in food preparation, places which may involve people being sick) but I am also aware that the problem is entirely my own. There are certain jobs I cannot do because of my phobia (eg nurse, flight attendant, working with small children) and I am willing to take responsibility that it's my own fault due to MH issues. So regarding your original post, you have to understand that it's NOT about you. The bigger picture is much more complex and serious than one dental nurse with a phobia of the vaccine. Covid is a disaster of epic proportions. We have friends who work in hospitals and they have had to witness countless people suffocate to death. Young doctors have to live with the fact that they may be indirectly responsible for killing people due to lack of resources, training and supervision. There are tens of thousands of families mourning loved ones and millions of people who have lost their livelihoods as a result of the pandemic and lockdown. It will only be over once enough people are vaccinated. Catching covid and recovering is not good enough because a small percentage of those patients invariably end up in hospital which will crush a buckling system even further.

If you don't want to get vaccinated then you need to leave the job and retrain as something else. Nobody owes you the job because you have an anxiety disorder that prevents you from being vaccinated. There are many jobs that do no require vaccinations so it doesn't mean you will lose the chance of earning an income.

If you do not want to seek therapy for your health anxiety, then spare a thought for doctors and nurses who have battled the front lines of covid for the past two years. They have worked 24 hour shifts in full-body PPE and watched people die every single day. Imagine the therapy they need for that. The "work" in a dental office is a joke in comparison (husband admits that he got off the easiest from all of his medical colleagues).

this post is excellent