Lockdown for the unvaccinated - or a full lockdown for everybody?

[PrincessNutNuts]

Which would you choose?

I don’t think I particularly expressed a view but it would be:

people should be encouraged and educated to make the right health choice. This education is not ‘coercion’.
If smokers continue to want to smoke, they should be restricted so it doesn’t harm the health of others.
If people want to remain unvaccinated they should consider how that choice may have implications to the health of others.

‘Education’ is fine as long as you accept that they may still make a different decision to the one that you want them to.

How many of those unvaccinated people are overweight/obese? Perhaps if there was more awareness of the risks associated with a higher BMI there would be higher uptake in unvaccinated people with higher BMIs.

As an aside smokers in the scheme of things pay a lot of tax and tend to die earlier thus saving money on pensions and healthcare. Not that I smoke, hate the habit but if everyone gave up there may well be a high cost societally speaking. Good argument for legalising and taxing drugs as well but I digress...

As an aside smokers in the scheme of things pay a lot of tax and tend to die earlier thus saving money on pensions and healthcare

No, they paid lots in the past, but their spending demands are now - it's another inter-generational transfer of wealth that is so prevalent and hard on the younger generations in our current community.

@bumbleymummy thing is what do you do when that education has largely been through unreliable science in social media groups? And by groups that have used Covid to push their extreme political agenda. And I do think these groups have preyed on the vulnerable, preyed on people’s fragile mental health.

You're quite right I have parrotted that smoker canard for years....

ilcuk.org.uk/smoking-costs-uk-economy-in-excess-of-19-billion-a-year-new-report-finds/

@bumbleymummy

You’re making sweeping generalisations about the unvaccinated. Obese people are more at risk and overweight/obese people are in the majority in ICU.

How do you know that overweight/obese people are in the majority in ICU? Do you have a source for that?

@bumbleymummy

Over 80% of people in icu are overweight or obese. Should we put restrictions on people if they’re BMI is too high? It’s for their own good because they’re higher risk and are most likely to put strain on the nhs. What do you think?

This is remarkably similar to something @userperuser mentioned on another thread. Restrictions because they are overweight? That sounds ... messed up somehow.

@Dishhh it does sound messed up doesn’t it? Yet if we’re talking about restricting people’s freedom based on their potential to put a strain on NHS services, it would make sense.

source for icu BMI figures.

Finally MSM are reporting it:

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/the-netherlands-rotterdam-police-open-fire-as-covid-protest-turns-violent

This is what happens when you take away people’s freedom.

Be interesting to hear the details from any posters actually in that part of the world…

From what I can glean from some non UK based MSM the proposed restrictions, whilst restrictive, didn’t seem to anything like as onerous as the restrictions being proposed in some other parts of Europe. If that’s the case was last night a straightforward case of the people protesting about their freedoms being removed or were there other forces in play?

We've just gone 2G here in Germany. So far all I've heard is there are tables set up at non essential shops and people checking vaccine status before you enter.

Rotterdam will be repeated in many places, there’s no doubt.

How do we move on from this stalemate we’re now in? Mass vaccination is seen as the way forward but what if that isn’t enough?

If despite mass vaccination we still see high numbers of breakthrough cases, reinfection and full hospitals again then what is the solution and what happens next?

People want to live their lives unrestricted but at what cost to public health long term. It seems like noons of the leaders have any idea, we need a global approach otherwise we’ll be rinsing and repeating the last 18 months for the next few years at least.

[quote bumbleymummy]@Dishhh it does sound messed up doesn’t it? Yet if we’re talking about restricting people’s freedom based on their potential to put a strain on NHS services, it would make sense.

source for icu BMI figures.[/quote]

To be frank, the difference isn't as stark as you're attempting to make out. From those figures, it is clear that Covid has been a problem for overweight people in England. That could be because there is a higher proportion of overweight people in England. The figures tell me nothing more than that.

No, it does not make sense to restrict their freedom. You want them to lose weight, don't you? Don't they need to exercise? Why am I even entertaining such nonsense?

@bumbleymummy it's cheaper to treat people with obesity rather than spend money tackling the causes of obesity. Always has been. Same with smoking / drinking. If there were a vaccine against obesity, do you think there'd be enough hesitant people to have this discussion?

@Dishhh I don’t think it makes sense to restrict anyone’s freedom. The point was that if we’re considering restricting people based on their potential strain on the nhs then overweight/obese people would be a target.

If you look at some of the figures on that document you can see the BMI levels in the population. Iirc ~64% of people have a BMI that would make them overweight/obese in the uk

@Barbie222 confining people to their homes, locking down gyms and keeping takeaways open probably didn’t help much!

@Thewiseoneincognito

Rotterdam will be repeated in many places, there’s no doubt.

How do we move on from this stalemate we’re now in? Mass vaccination is seen as the way forward but what if that isn’t enough?

If despite mass vaccination we still see high numbers of breakthrough cases, reinfection and full hospitals again then what is the solution and what happens next?

People want to live their lives unrestricted but at what cost to public health long term. It seems like noons of the leaders have any idea, we need a global approach otherwise we’ll be rinsing and repeating the last 18 months for the next few years at least.

You raise a very important point that what happens if mass vaccination is not enough and Covid cases continue every year (peaking in Winter). Indeed Gibraltar has close to 100% vaccination and is suffering rising cases and hospitalisations this winter.

The problem is that the vaccination programme was mistakenly believed by many to be the solution that delivered zero Covid. Now that is increasingly showing to be untrue plus that the jabs themselves decline in their effectiveness over 6 months (hence the rollout of booster jabs).

So there are two options:
A) Compulsory jabs and then booster jabs for all every 6 months or before every winter PLUS continued restrictions going forward (the Austrian model and probably other countries in the very near future).

The problem with this route is that people will refuse to comply or protest against their civil liberties and right to decide what goes in their bodies.

Or

B) we basically crack on as we are relaxing restrictions but encouraging booster jabs (ie the current UK model).

The problem with this model is that cases and deaths will continue which will be politically unacceptable to many expecting zero Covid or an end to Covid one day or to those favouring further restrictions to reduce cases and deaths To those against restrictions from the beginning or Covid sceptics the argument will be that if we are now being asked to live with Covid then why didn't we do that to start with and have prevented the economic and health destruction and massive Gov debt.

Cases aren’t really an issue, only hospitalisations and deaths - and we have the vaccine now to reduce these. Immunity after infection will help to bring down cases too.

Cases are rising again after half term so deaths and hospitalisations will follow after the lag period.

They will, but numbers are moderate. Gotta get on with living, learning and earning.

Folk that are concerned or particularly altruistic can take the initiative and reduce contact. (Or get a booster. Or both.) Those that are actually at risk but still want to socialise can easily find FFP3s.

For most everyone else, this is now just the flu.

coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases?areaType=nation%26areaName=England#card-cases_by_specimen_date_age_demographics_-_above_and_below_60

So actually, so far, cases are still falling in over 60's which is the best proxy for those at risk in the stats, so we don't actually yet have any higher level of deaths and hospitalisations to come from the cases stats.

What are FFP3s?

It's difficult to find real specifics of their rules and lockdown.

What they have in place currently with vaccine passports also allows a negative test or proof of recent recovery to enter non essential businesses.

For the lockdown of the unvaccinated in place now it says they can only leave the home for essential things which is pretty much how it already was as far as I can see.

The big change is the proposed fines next February for those who don't get the vaccine. How they would police that is the question.

As a comparison Canadians aren't allowed to enter the same places without a vaccine passport. They also can't use a negative test or proof of recovery so that's more restrictive than Austria

They also can't use trains or planes domestically and I don't see any restrictions on that in Austria.

I think the term lockdown does need to be clarified in these cases

I'm personally against all of these measures but if you ask if it should happen in the UK then what specifically are you referring to?

If you need a vaccine passport for non essential businesses is that a lockdown?

It's really not hard at all, you just have to google it in German and then use Google Translate:

www.sozialministerium.at/Informationen-zum-Coronavirus/Coronavirus---Aktuelle-Ma%C3%9Fnahmen.html