Lockdown for the unvaccinated - or a full lockdown for everybody?

[PrincessNutNuts]

Which would you choose?

It looks like boosters will be required every few months. The rates at which protection from the vaccine diminishes is quite fast.
I’d rather focus on vitamin d levels and good underlying health then keep getting boosters to keep my covid pass valid.

@bumbleymummy

I think it's likely that a lot of countries are considering imposing more restrictions on the unvaccinated rather than more restrictions on the fully vaccinated.

Which will do little because vaccinated people can still continue to transmit the virus (and many unvaccinated people are already immune).

It's the unvaccinated people you want to keep from getting covid. They're the ones more likely to need hospital beds when they do eventually get it. Those beds are needed for other people who did have the sense to get jabbed.

@PrincessNutNuts how will that make any difference if they’re not immune? (According to you)

If they fall ill with something other than covid obviously.

@bumbleymummy

Ok. So how do you think we’re going to achieve a “high level of population immunity” then?

We have studies that show several months post covid immunity

Doesn’t this count? I’m not sure why pp is deleting that part

It's the unvaccinated people you want to keep from getting covid. They're the ones more likely to need hospital beds when they do eventually get it. Those beds are needed for other people who did have the sense to get jabbed.

It really depends on their age/health. An unvaccinated 20 year old is much less likely to need a bed than a vaccinated obese over 60 year old.

@MarshaBradyo I know. Princess doesn’t think anyone has immunity after infection/vaccination though so I’m not sure how she thinks we’re going to achieve population immunity.

@bumbleymummy

It's the unvaccinated people you want to keep from getting covid. They're the ones more likely to need hospital beds when they do eventually get it. Those beds are needed for other people who did have the sense to get jabbed.

It really depends on their age/health. An unvaccinated 20 year old is much less likely to need a bed than a vaccinated obese over 60 year old.

Again, why compare apples and oranges?

In a cohort of vaccinated 20 year olds, far less will "need a hospital bed", or indeed get infected/transmit to others/have long term complications, compared to a cohort of unvaccinated 20 year olds.

[quote bumbleymummy]@MarshaBradyo I know. Princess doesn’t think anyone has immunity after infection/vaccination though so I’m not sure how she thinks we’re going to achieve population immunity.[/quote]
It was the dropping of any post-infection immunity that got me. Seems a big missing link, felt like I’d fallen in a rabbit hole.

I can see why op posts are as they are more now.

A 20 year old is unlikely to need a hospital bed regardless of their vaccine status. I’m pointing out to the pp that it’s not simply a case that “It's the unvaccinated people you want to keep from getting covid. They're the ones more likely to need hospital beds when they do eventually get it.” It’s mainly the younger age groups who are unvaccinated and they’ve always been at lower risk. We should be focussing on boosters for the most vulnerable at this point.

But @ollyollyoxenfree if we're just going from the evidence, the people we should lock down are those likely to put strain on the NHS, right? (I disagree with this, but that's the premise.)

So if a vaccinated 60yr old is more likely to put strain on the NHS than an unvaxed 20yr old, we lock either both of them down, or just the 60yr old.

Or else just come out and say it, "I want the unvaccinated punished, whatever the statistics say." That's a point of view, certainly.

And btw if you search my username, you'll find that while I personally am waiting to have my vax, mostly at this point for civil liberties reasons (in other words, I'll have it when I'm no longer being threatened to have it), I've provided explanations on other threads for answers to questions like, "If vaccines work, why are most infections in the vaccinated?" So if you're going to call me an anti-vaxxer, you'd better limber up first before you do that stretch.

Should we really be using up valuable bed space by treating those people that have heart conditions linked to being obese?

What about care space for those that have raised their Alzheimer’s risk through moderate lifelong alcohol consumption?

What about cancer in smokers who gave up, but still have the occasional one with a drink?

Why is covid special?

@110APiccadilly

But *@ollyollyoxenfree* if we're just going from the evidence, the people we should lock down are those likely to put strain on the NHS, right? (I disagree with this, but that's the premise.)

So if a vaccinated 60yr old is more likely to put strain on the NHS than an unvaxed 20yr old, we lock either both of them down, or just the 60yr old.

Or else just come out and say it, "I want the unvaccinated punished, whatever the statistics say." That's a point of view, certainly.

And btw if you search my username, you'll find that while I personally am waiting to have my vax, mostly at this point for civil liberties reasons (in other words, I'll have it when I'm no longer being threatened to have it), I've provided explanations on other threads for answers to questions like, "If vaccines work, why are most infections in the vaccinated?" So if you're going to call me an anti-vaxxer, you'd better limber up first before you do that stretch.

Did you mean to @ me?

Was just responding to one of @bumbleymummy's classic posts

You'll see from my posts on this thread that I don't think lockdown applied to any specific part of the population is a good idea (be it on vaccination status or anything else)

So if you're going to call me an anti-vaxxer, you'd better limber up first before you do that stretch.

Eh?! Just read the full post, not sure who you're replying to but it certainly isn't me @110APiccadilly

Haven't referred to you or anyone else as an "anti-vaxxer"

@puppeteer no idea. If we’re locking up people that are most likely to end up in hospital then we would be locking up the elderly and the obese. I don’t think that would go down well! I’m not sure what people think restrictions like this will actually achieve - unvaccinated are the minority, many are already immune and vaccinated people can still contract/transmit the virus. It’s not like we’d see a dramatic fall in cases. Boosters are our best shot at keeping hospitalisations low over winter.

This is also your first post on the thread apparently? NC? Curiouser and curioser

I have my own stalker .

@puppeteer

Should we really be using up valuable bed space by treating those people that have heart conditions linked to being obese?

What about care space for those that have raised their Alzheimer’s risk through moderate lifelong alcohol consumption?

What about cancer in smokers who gave up, but still have the occasional one with a drink?

Why is covid special?

No one is saying don't give them a bed. Are there public health campaigns to reduce obesity and smoking - yes. So covid isn't special.

@bumbleymummy

I have my own stalker .

Or perhaps delusions of gradeur? Don't think we've interacted in a while, but if you do post such things on a thread I'm active on I'll prob be inclined to reply

@bumbleymummy

It's the unvaccinated people you want to keep from getting covid. They're the ones more likely to need hospital beds when they do eventually get it. Those beds are needed for other people who did have the sense to get jabbed.

It really depends on their age/health. An unvaccinated 20 year old is much less likely to need a bed than a vaccinated obese over 60 year old.

They aren't less likely to reduce the spread of the virus though. The vaccinated 60 year old is around 60% less likely to spread it.

As I said before, I wish we could stop talking about "unvaccinated" as though they are are a homogeneous group and the same goes for "vaccinated".

I had covid about 4 months ago. I have been re-exposed since then and have no reason to think that I'm not currently immune. I am unvaccinated.

I live in France and we have covid passes here. Mine is valid until 6 months post infection and then it will be invalidated and I will have exactly the same status as a covid naive unvaccinated person.

Vaccinated people have a pass with no expiry date on it (this is double vaccination for under 65s and the French government have recently added a booster requirement for the over 65s if they want to keep their passes).

I do not believe that the above policy is based on the latest science. How come natural immunity is assumed to wane by 100% in 100% of people at some arbitrary cut off date?
And how come the policy reflects an assumption that vaccination is 100% protective in 100% of people?

It's nonsense.

Actually I should have said; And how come the policy reflects an assumption that vaccination is 100% protective in 100% of people under 65 indefinitely ?

@Beachcomber

Actually I should have said; And how come the policy reflects an assumption that vaccination is 100% protective in 100% of people under 65 indefinitely ?

No it shouldn’t, you’re right

We’re getting boosters 40 plus here so far

Well that probably makes more sense than the French policy on boosters.

I'm very much in disagreement with the French policy on recovered people. I really hope that France drops covid passes soon or at least reexamines the science on natural immunity longevity.

In a couple of months time I will no longer have a covid pass and my movements will be restricted despite my having had covid and probably being immune or at the very least not vulnerable. Meanwhile vaccinated people of my age are allowed to go wherever they want and it is likely that many of them will contract and transmit the virus.

www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/health/coronavirus-immunity.html

It's a daft premise. If things get bad enough in hospitals that we need to apply the hard brakes, it would have to be a full lockdown. A "lockdown of the unvaccinated" would do bugger all because the great majority of people contracting and spreading the virus are vaccinated (simply because most people are vaccinated). It also wouldn't prevent unvaccinated people from getting infected because they'd still need to go to work etc.