What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is...

[CanadianJohn]

What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is how malevolent some of them are. If I decided I didn't want a covid jab, I certainly wouldn't picket hospitals and health centres. Recently an elected legislator in Manitoba faced a demonstration of about 30 people at her home, and someone left a noose on her lawn. www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/health/alberta-politician-angry-after-covid-19-protesters-leave-gallows-noose-at-her-house-575661242.html

A recent news story on booster jabs provoked dozens of responses poking fun at "sheeple" and referencing Big Phama and similar themes.

Why are so many people so vitriolic about the vaccine?

@Trixiefirecracker

I don’t get my Information from Twitter, it’s a social media site and full of crap, it’s a bit worrying you do. I suggest if you are getting your information from there it’s no wonder you have fallen down a hole of anti-vaccine nonsense. If you post me some proper data, I’ll read it.

The Twitter link that was given to you gave further links to articles in the mainstream media.

@Trixiefirecracker

I don’t get my Information from Twitter, it’s a social media site and full of crap, it’s a bit worrying you do. I suggest if you are getting your information from there it’s no wonder you have fallen down a hole of anti-vaccine nonsense. If you post me some proper data, I’ll read it.

Seriously? The Twitter link is for various news outlets like BBC, Reuters CNN etc all perfectly mainstream and respectable - what a patronising and silly thing to say when you clearly hadn't even clicked on the link to see what sources were being cited.

@Trixiefirecracker its a collation of mainstream news links. I'm sorry but I don't have time to post all of them separately.

Unfortunately the way you've just spoken to me doesn't include me to continue our conversation beyond this. It does however prove my point about how difficult it is to have these conversations without attracting insults.

I do think the risk of heart issues post vaccine is important, but so is the risk of myocarditis and other heart damage after covid - some of the sports people mentioned specifically say their heart problems were a result of covid infection.

If I lived in NZ I wouldn't vaccinate my children, but they are in schools with no mitigation where children are dropping like flies and presumably a very high viral load. (and high viral load is directly correlated with severity of disease)

The risk / benefit of the vaccines depends massively on what the risk of covid is in any country, In the UK, the risk of covid is enormous because we're doing nothing at all to stop the spread.

@MaxNormal oh don’t flounce off because I said I wanted a viable source of data, you must all know Twitter is full of nonsense surely? I haven’t time to sift between the lines, maybe you do. I’ve posted many articles answering your queries to all your misgivings and none of you have taken the time to read them or post back because it’s not what you want to hear. I can’t see anywhere I have insulted you but please do enlighten.

I'm not flouncing, don't worry, just don't think there's much point me engaging further with you.
I follow mostly blue tick scientist and medical accounts with a centrist viewpoint and am happy with that. Twitter really is what you make of it.

Given that vaccines don't stop the spread, I wouldn't be surprised if the new antivirals are mandated at some point too.

@Trixiefirecracker

I don’t get my Information from Twitter, it’s a social media site and full of crap, it’s a bit worrying you do. I suggest if you are getting your information from there it’s no wonder you have fallen down a hole of anti-vaccine nonsense. If you post me some proper data, I’ll read it.

My Twitter feed is full of medical journals, academics in my area of research and statisticians. That’s all I really signed up to it for! Pretty dry at times but definitely not full of anti-vaccine, conspiracy theory nonsense. I’m partial to the odd cat video though

In the UK, the risk of covid is enormous because we're doing nothing at all to stop the spread.

Or lower because we’ve had a really high uptake in the most vulnerable population and >93% of over 16s have antibodies after infection/vaccination?

[quote Trixiefirecracker]@MaxNormal oh don’t flounce off because I said I wanted a viable source of data, you must all know Twitter is full of nonsense surely? I haven’t time to sift between the lines, maybe you do. I’ve posted many articles answering your queries to all your misgivings and none of you have taken the time to read them or post back because it’s not what you want to hear. I can’t see anywhere I have insulted you but please do enlighten.[/quote]
Well Twitter feeds you what it thinks you want to read based on the algorithm so if your Twitter feed is full of nonsense then I guess that tells us something 🤔

bumbley your twitter feed sounds like mine!
I also follow newspapers of various persuasions (so eg the Guardian but also the Telegraph) and major politicians of various political stripes. I deliberately try and keep it quite balanced.

Coincidentally this article just popped up: www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/raetselhafte-herzerkrankungen-im-fussball-li.193554

"An unusually large number of professional and amateur soccer players have collapsed recently."

They do not speculate as to a cause. And tbf one could just as easily argue undetected damage from a mild virus as from a vaccine. The point is it would be nice to have it clarified.

Given that much of what you post @bumbleymummy is pretty much anti vaccine and has been for a long time, (for which you are constantly called out on) then that really does surprise me.
It’s very telling though, which posts some of you choose to reply to and some of you choose to ignore.

Well, it’s pretty clear from this thread that people have some strange idea about what being ‘anti-vaxx’ means. I’ve said several times that I think the vaccine has done a great job of reducing serious illness and death but because I don’t want it myself and don’t agree with mandatory vaccination I’m apparently ‘anti-vaxx’. It’s a bit silly.

@Trixiefirecracker

Given that much of what you post *@bumbleymummy* is pretty much anti vaccine and has been for a long time, (for which you are constantly called out on) then that really does surprise me. It’s very telling though, which posts some of you choose to reply to and some of you choose to ignore.

It's also interesting that you chose to ignore the mainstream news link articles that Maxnormal posted via that Twitter link. You don't want to engage with information that doesn't fit with your viewpoint.

@Lilifer I did read some of them but at struggling to see the point of the Twitter feed. Is it that they are all definitely deaths/illnesses caused by the vaccine? I don’t think there’s much conclusive evidence there to link it to vaccination, which I assume was the point? The ones I read were where they were the after effects of covid, which seems to strengthen the argument for being vaccinated. A few of the links were from really dodgy sources, as I rightly guessed, one from the sun, so least said the better. People do often die and suffer from heart related diseases and also many sports people are prone to these kind of stresses on their heart as well as myocarditis because of the nature of their jobs. Im pretty sure I could get a list together of lots of sports people from all over the world, who had it passed away, all from a similar disease, should I draw random conclusions from it? I mean there’s millions of sports professionals in the world, so well done for them making a list of erm, at least 10?

@FakingMemories

I find people on the “other side” of the argument are just as horrible. I’ve seen more than a few threads here and elsewhere where people feel it’s perfectly reasonable to suggest that if someone who refused the vaxx gets COVID they should be refused medical treatment and death being wished upon them. Interesting that the same is not wished upon smokers, drinkers, the obese, drug addicts, people who participate in extreme sports, etc.

That’s very much what I have seen too.

[quote Trixiefirecracker]@Lilifer I did read some of them but at struggling to see the point of the Twitter feed. Is it that they are all definitely deaths/illnesses caused by the vaccine? I don’t think there’s much conclusive evidence there to link it to vaccination, which I assume was the point? The ones I read were where they were the after effects of covid, which seems to strengthen the argument for being vaccinated. A few of the links were from really dodgy sources, as I rightly guessed, one from the sun, so least said the better. People do often die and suffer from heart related diseases and also many sports people are prone to these kind of stresses on their heart as well as myocarditis because of the nature of their jobs. Im pretty sure I could get a list together of lots of sports people from all over the world, who had it passed away, all from a similar disease, should I draw random conclusions from it? I mean there’s millions of sports professionals in the world, so well done for them making a list of erm, at least 10?[/quote]
That's a fair point and you're right in that it's not conclusive. But I think that there is enough of a question out there in peoples minds to make them hesitate or be slightly cautious about letting their kids or teenagers take the vaccine even if they have happily taken it themselves because of the risk benefit analysis.

Personally I tend to think that this vaccine is very safe, from my own reading and analysis, but i utterly reject any notion of mandating it for people. Can't you see the inherent wrong in that? If it's so effective then why mandate it? Those who want it are protected and those who don't take that risk on themselves - the vulnerable are protected by their vaccine and the vulnerable can still catch it from a vaccinated person anyway

Yes, but I never once said anything about mandating it, if you read my posts earlier I said I was totally anti any kind of intimidation, which is what the Original post is actually about. I also said people should be able to make their own choices and that I felt there was a huge difference between extreme anti-Vaxxers and those that can’t have it due to underlying condition or have chosen not to for similar reasons. What I do object to is people posting false narratives, or jumping to wild conclusions and trying to make out they are fact, there’s a lot of posters who post information about why they think the vaccine is dodgy but with no back up whatsoever and that’s how misinformation is spread, especially on here. Someone comes a long and says ‘hey, I saw a list of sports people who all got ill as a result of the vaccine’, they maybe don’t delve any deeper as they’ve just read that post but are perpetuating that misinformation by passing it on. I have stated time and time again please link to articles, don’t spread BS. If you don’t want the vaccine, far enough but don’t perpetuate the unfounded.

Everybody is potentially vulnerable...because of the risk of Long Covid.

Unsurprising there's a possible risk to all. Given it's a new disease (that might have escaped from a lab).

Wrt poorer countries. It's necessary to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others, but also donations are a drop in the ocean. Those professing concern for improved acesss can call for a temporary patent waiver. That's how you get it out to everybody quicker.

As for myocarditis.

The rare side effect from the vaccine is almost always mild and easily treated. Meanwhile, the risks of any heart issue including myocarditis (from mild to severe) is much greater from actual Covid infection. Doctors have explained this many times.

Someone upthread said anti-vaxxers were making lots of money. How exactly would that be happening?
The vaccine roll out is transferring billions of pounds from tax payers to big pharma, that is a fact. Many people in charge of the roll out have financial interests in big pharma that is also a fact. Patrick Vallance has shares is Pfizer.
You may believe this people are completely objective and disinterested in the money they are making but you can’t deny they are making it. What financial interests are served by questioning the vaccine roll out?

Please link the data showing vaccination reduces the risk of long Covid symptoms?
And to say myocarditis is always mild is disingenuous, long term effects remain unknown.

And to say myocarditis is always mild is disingenuous

Who said that?

The rare cases linked to the Covid vaccine have been found to be almost always mild. Whether that's the same with the more common cases associated with Covid infection is another matter.

long term effects remain unknown.

Yes absolutely. The long term effects of a new disease (that is possibly escaped from a lab) do indeed remain unknown.

@Hotcoffee10 I did. Many ways Here’s a couple of links: www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01260-6
www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/12/993615185/for-some-anti-vaccine-advocates-misinformation-is-part-of-a-business?t=1636497661472

www.codastory.com/waronscience/social-media-profit-pandemic-antivax/

Theres a lot of money to be made. Always is.