What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is...

[CanadianJohn]

What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is how malevolent some of them are. If I decided I didn't want a covid jab, I certainly wouldn't picket hospitals and health centres. Recently an elected legislator in Manitoba faced a demonstration of about 30 people at her home, and someone left a noose on her lawn. www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/health/alberta-politician-angry-after-covid-19-protesters-leave-gallows-noose-at-her-house-575661242.html

A recent news story on booster jabs provoked dozens of responses poking fun at "sheeple" and referencing Big Phama and similar themes.

Why are so many people so vitriolic about the vaccine?

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html

www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2251

Covid-19: Study that claimed boys are at increased risk of myocarditis after vaccination is deeply flawed, say critics

the US Department of Health and Human Services and other agencies emphasised that the side effect was “extremely rare” and that most cases were mild.

Patrick Vallance has shares is Pfizer.

Interest rates have been beyond shit for years and years. Many people have therefore turned to other homes for their savings - including shares. Pharmaceutical shares have long been seen as a good investment.

@Tealightsandd

Patrick Vallance has shares is Pfizer.

Interest rates have been beyond shit for years and years. Many people have therefore turned to other homes for their savings - including shares. Pharmaceutical shares have long been seen as a good investment.

Didn’t he explain he got them as part of a work package?

@bumbleymummy

In the UK, the risk of covid is enormous because we're doing nothing at all to stop the spread.

Or lower because we’ve had a really high uptake in the most vulnerable population and >93% of over 16s have antibodies after infection/vaccination?

Actually if you're an adult without kids in school, maybe you're right.

All I know is that half of my daughter's tutor group have had or currently have covid. They've brought in special measures for the pregnant teacher, which suggests they know they have a problem (who gives a shit about the poor disabled kids forced to go into school though, eh? Or the vulnerable parents or family members of the teachers). I also know 3 families where the entire family have got covid at the mo and the parents (all double vaccinated) are really struggling because they're so poorly to look after their kids. There are parents having chemotherapy or who have had organ transplants who may not be able to have the vaccine or respond to it - they are at very high risk of their kids bringing home a disease that could kill them.

Children mostly still aren't vaccinated so your points don't apply to the population I live with. The school roll out has been atrocious - one school near here messed up their consent forms so loads of kids who wanted the vaccine were missed. The nearest drop in centre is miles away.

And the CO2 monitors promised are entirely absent.

My daughter isn't wearing the vests I've bought her so I'm assuming the ventilation isn't very good.

Even though there's been a drop over half term, the rate of covid in her year is still higher than I've seen at any other time in the pandemic - even the start.

Oh and of course anyone under 12 still can't get a vaccine even if they wanted one and they're forced into unsafe schools.

It's have an education and be exposed to covid or neither.

As I said, I agree the risk of the vaccine is definitely something that needs more data (especially for the under 12s as the clinical trials are relatively small I think about 3,000 participants) but risk analysis involves balancing the risk of the vaccine against the risk of infection and the latter depends on exposure and exposure in UK state schools is enormous.

@Hotcoffee10

Please link the data showing vaccination reduces the risk of long Covid symptoms? And to say myocarditis is always mild is disingenuous, long term effects remain unknown.

Someone did upthread. And the figures are readily available from reputable sources. And no, myocarditis is not always mild but it usually is and the risk of myocarditis from COVID is more than from the vaccine by far. As has been explained many many times, there are no long term effects from vaccines apart from slightly waning effect at various time scales (think of tetanus boosters, flu etc) and an improved life expectancy. The anti vaccine movement just invents problems that don’t exist and then talk about them enough that people assume there can’t be smoke without fire. There is no fire. I am entirely over the vaccine misinformation bullshit that even MN appears to allow on their site. If you argue against it you are the bad guy even as you try and save lives. Sometimes people are just WRONG.

There were people waiting in the USA for JFK Jr to rise from the dead the other day to run with Trump for presidency in 2024. Just because some people on Facebook think something is true doesn’t mean it is (I imagine every single one was also anti vaccine and pro ivermectin)

@Tealightsandd

Patrick Vallance has shares is Pfizer.

Interest rates have been beyond shit for years and years. Many people have therefore turned to other homes for their savings - including shares. Pharmaceutical shares have long been seen as a good investment.

Tbh Pfizer is a shitty stock

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Oh and of course anyone under 12 still can't get a vaccine even if they wanted one and they're forced into unsafe schools.

It's have an education and be exposed to covid or neither.

As I said, I agree the risk of the vaccine is definitely something that needs more data (especially for the under 12s as the clinical trials are relatively small I think about 3,000 participants) but risk analysis involves balancing the risk of the vaccine against the risk of infection and the latter depends on exposure and exposure in UK state schools is enormous.

Agree

I don't know that anti-vaxxers are making a lot of money, but certainly if you run an alternative health based business it serves to increase your target market if you can convince people that mainstream medicine is phony, out to scam them, won't listen to their issues etc. People get sick and if they don't trust mainstream medicine they are much more likely to look for alternative sources of help than just roll over and die.

It's a bit like formula companies seeking to disrupt breastfeeding rates. They don't directly benefit from people losing trust and faith in breastmilk, but if that causes people to stop or reduce breastfeeding then they still have to feed their baby something, and hey presto, formula is there to fill the gap.

I don't deny that there are aspects of medicine which are predatory and money making BTW but it's naive to think that proponents of alternative health, nutritional supplements etc are purely altruistic - they are in the business of making money, too. And one way to increase the market for alternative therapies is to stir up distrust in mainstream medicine.

I used to know a medical doctor who also practised complementary therapy. He always said some of the alternative medicine adherents made the (big) mistake of confusing alternative with complementary. A good complementary therapist works together with modern science and medicine. They complement each other.

It is quite easy to do this via vaccines specifically, because a vaccine is something you have when you're healthy.

If you're ill or have a problem and you're told surgery/treatment is an option but here are the risks, then it's quite clear that you're trading off a smaller risk for a larger benefit.

But vaccines are for healthy people, and the benefit is pretty much invisible. You don't get any magic indicator showing you it has worked. So it's fairly easy to go down the line of making people wonder whether a vaccine really does work or not. It's not difficult to bring up anecdotes of Mary who had the vaccine but died anyway or Chris who got covid and was absolutely fine. Those people exist but it's larger trends we look at when deciding whether vaccines are worthwhile or not.

Secondly most people dislike the experience of having an injection and would prefer to avoid it unless they really have to. Doubly so with the tales of side effects relating to these vaccines (This surprised me actually, because I've never heard of such widespread side effects from vaccines before). Some people feel very anxious about needles. So again it's quite easy to persuade people with well... you know you don't really have to do this, or it doesn't make a difference whether you have it or not. Most people are quite happy to take an excuse to avoid something they don't want to do, the reasoning doesn't necessarily have to be that sound unless they are worried about the consequences of not doing it.

If you're healthy and you feel there is a potential risk to something then the benefits have to be pretty good in order for it to be worth it. Therefore vaccines are a very easy target for somebody who wants to open up a "gateway" doubt in someone's mind about the validity of mainstream medicine in general.

We would have known about the sudden drop in effectiveness if they had studied these vaccines over a longer period. Pretty fucking huge oversight, don’t you think?

It isn't sudden - it's a gradual reduction, which was no great surprise. In any case, I'd rather be covered for 6 months than dead!

If some people don't want to get vaccinated - fine.

Just don't intimidate vulnerable people, don't put the sick at risk, or expect to be in the same space as me. And TELL us, so we can decide if it's a risk to us or not.

I have no doubt there are people who have genuine concerns and reservations about getting the covid vaccines.

Then on the other side of the spectrum are the hardcore anti vaxxere, covid deniers and conspiracy theorists.

There's a woman local to me. She moved to the area, I don't know how many years ago. Maybe about 10 years ago. I found her to be very pushy and draining and overly dramatic in her ways when it came to making friends. She's around about my mom's age so she zoned in on local women about that age. I will giver her the initial 'D' for this post.
I remember an episode where she had plans made for another lady to come around for tea and a chat but something came up for the other lady and she cancelled. 'D' had a complete melt down to my mom over the cancellation and my mom found it to be over the top.
Eventually D started to mirror my mom and D claimed she had a son living in Australia and he was due home. You see I have some siblings in Australia. That son never came home. He was never seen. He was never introduced to anyone. I question if there was a son there at all and I think she made up a story of having a son in Australia to mirror my mother and try and be friends with my mom. My mom has her own life so she wants all the time open to having visitors and friends and having a full on friendship with a new lady.

Then earlier this year, this woman D emerged around the village and she would bump into people out walking and stopping for a chat. Basically she fell out the conspiracy rabbit hole. Basically she has a new story of having a son who's a medic and according to him who has first hand medic experience, covid has been falsified for government control or some such nonsense. I question if there's a son who's a medic at all and if he was made up so that she can push her agenda and beliefs onto other people.

@Greenplums

I have declined the covid jabs. I made an informed decision not to have them, after weighing up the pros and cons based on my personal perceived risk, the infection fatality rate, the fact that there was no long-term data and (as we now know) the fact that having the jabs don't prevent you from getting or passing on covid.

Alarm bells started ringing for me when I realised how they were counting and classifying covid deaths.

I remain very 'under the radar' about not having the jabs. The reason why some unvaccinated people are getting so passionate about things is that they can see that there is literally no counter view being presented in mainstream media and want to make people aware.

There are no special reports on the 6pm news showing people who are vaccine damaged. There are no journalists on the news questioning the method in which covid deaths are reported and the definition of "unvaccinated" people in hospital (you are not considered vaccinated until 15 days after the 2nd dose is administered). There is no mention on the mainstream media about the covid IFR.

I don't condone people intimidating other people in the slightest, but can understand why some extreme people/groups are doing it.

This is very well said. The media is being controlled, most people don't know of people having bad side effects nor how to report them through the yellow card. I know a lot of people whose menstrual cycles have been mucked up. Also there are demonstrations against covid passports going on around the world. These are not being reported. Remember for most people covid is a mild illness. I have had it and certainly won't be getting the jab.

Okay @Trixiefirecracker one of those articles suggest people make money through promoting natural remedies instead of vaccines which is doubtless true but seriously where do you think the big money is? It is obviously on the side of the mega billion pound corporations intent on giving six monthly injections to every single rich citizen on the planet (not the poor ones, note, just the rich ones). This is paid for by people like me and you working for longer, paying of our mortgages slower. And of course our children who will be poorer because of this.
Now maybe these corporations and their shareholders are such good citizens they are totally uninterested in the money and merely want to help, I don’t know. But we should at least acknowledge the massive profit motive here and it is clearly on one side of the debate. There is no profit in opposing vaccines. Some people might buy an alternative product but it’s always going to be pretty limited.

There is a massive media push behind these vaccinations. Protests against vaccine passports are not reported on. Vaccine related deaths are reported as collateral damage.
I don’t oppose vaccination but I do oppose mandating and coercing vaccination. You are aware there is absolutely no long term safety data on these injections? Pfizer vaccinated the control group after 4 months, why? We already knew the risk of death was low in young healthy people they could have easily run a randomised trial for a longer time, at least a year. These are very experienced drug researchers who don’t make mistakes. It’s because they knew the protection would be temporary so they wanted to make the results look as good as possible.

@UsedUpUsername what on earth do you mean? They have made massive profits this year obviously in what way is it a shitty stock?! A massive ongoing revenue source is an amazing stock.

@Hotcoffee10 did you read the others? There’s plenty of ways they make money and when you trace it back it’s only actually coming from a handful of anti-vaxxers at the top who are raking it in. There is absolutely a lot of money being made from it, big bucks. Millions of pounds. Each side is equally corrupt in my view just most people know about the pharma companies. I can provide plenty more links…

You can’t just ignore all the other articles because it suits your narrative! Oh, hold on that’s exactly what anti-vaccine people do. 🙄

Here’s another @Hotcoffee10 millions of pounds being made… www.google.co.uk/amp/s/fortune.com/2021/05/14/disinformation-media-vaccine-covid19/amp/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/sherri-tenpenny-how-anti-vaxxer-fuels-pandemic-makes-money-2021-8%3famp

www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-health/dozen-misguided-influencers-spread-most-anti-vaccination-content-social-media

I’m not ignoring it. I’m sure there is some shady corrupt types making money out of an anti vaccine agenda. In all seriousness you must see it’s peanuts compared to the vaccines.

Who do you know who is buying anti vax products? Who have you even heard of? Who do you know who is buying vaccines? The taxpayers of every single rich nation in the world, many times over. Even the tiniest bit of common sense would tell you where the money is.

It’s big business. I’m sorry to can’t see that or don’t choose to.