What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is...

[CanadianJohn]

What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is how malevolent some of them are. If I decided I didn't want a covid jab, I certainly wouldn't picket hospitals and health centres. Recently an elected legislator in Manitoba faced a demonstration of about 30 people at her home, and someone left a noose on her lawn. www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/health/alberta-politician-angry-after-covid-19-protesters-leave-gallows-noose-at-her-house-575661242.html

A recent news story on booster jabs provoked dozens of responses poking fun at "sheeple" and referencing Big Phama and similar themes.

Why are so many people so vitriolic about the vaccine?

@Trixiefirecracker - I stated that I definitely didn't condone people doing such things but I have the capacity within me to understand why certain groups of people would do such things (to get a reaction). How very nice of you to say that this doesn't make me a nice person!

@Siriisatwat

You want to take agency away from from elderly people and yet dare to cry about ‘eugenics’

My dad is in his mid 80s. He refused to be infantilised last year as did a lot of his friends. The ones that were left - obviously a lot of them died over the past ten years or so. The ones that were left didn’t want to ease what could be their last year(s) hiding away in their homes alone.

They carried on meeting up, having their poker nights. Some of their children threw tantrums over it, saying they would report them to the police.

I’m glad they carried on. My dad said he’d made it this long into life, something had to kill him eventually, he couldn’t run and hide from death forever.

Even more glad now that he carried on having fun - my dad has had rapid cognitive decline over the past few months and is now a shell of the person he was.

At least he carried on living his life and didn’t hide away for the last “good” year of his life.

Good for your Dad and sorry to hear about the cognitive decline 😔 - how right he was to enjoy the last 18 months when he could, he was lucky to have the strength of character to do that. It upsets me so much to see how much the last 18 months of restrictions and rules has robbed our elderly population of their precious time left, has taken their voice, their social contacts, their confidence and their joy in life, and left behind in many cases a diminished person with less confidence than before.

@HitchhikersGuide

This is simply an example of the tone of 'debate' now on absolutely everything and from all sides. The language used about 'anti vaxxers' is part of the problem. I am not an 'anti vaxxer'. I simply don't agree with mandates, especially for a vaccine that does not stop infection or transmission, making mandates utterly illogical and pointless as well as unethical. Aggressive anti vaxxers are no worse than aggressive 'vaxxers'. Cut from the same cloth as people on the extremes of arguments always are. There should be nuance.

This.

I'm double-jabbed. I don't want the booster because of previous side effects I'm still having from the initial jabs - but I'm horrified at the total removal of the principles of informed consent in terms of a healthcare procedure. It goes against everything we have dinned into us time and time again in healthcare training - document the patient has consented to everything you're doing - even something as "trivial" as getting a tongue depressor out, or feeling their throat while they swallow - you still need to make sure they understand and agree freely with what you're proposing to do.

Yet now we're basically advocating stripping away people's livelihoods and rights to participate in society - unless they "consent" to a jab? That isn't consent - it's coercion and that terrifies me about the road it could potentially lead down.

Again, I'm not anti-vaccine - I'm jabbed, my kids are fully jabbed with all childhood ones - but I really do get so angry that any concerns raised about this is just responded to with insults about "idiot anti-vaxxers"... "anti-vaxxers are fuckwits"... comments about Trump-supporting conspiracy theorists and wishing death upon me (all gems that have gone un-challenged on MN however much you might like to re-write history on the fly).

What is happening to society at the moment is fucking dystopian. The media playing up and down human fear to suit whatever the selected narrative is that day is psychological torture on the population... politicians openly mocking the population by imposing rules and then ignoring them themselves. The "othering" of any group in society who is unable to comply with these ever-changing rules - those who can't wear masks (I can't - I've tried - I'm autistic, it completely overloads me and I basically get reduced to the level where my entire functionality is devoted to breathing and staying upright), the removal from societal function of those who decline the vaccine for whatever reasons in other countries and partially in the UK... the orchestrated clapping for carers and bullying of those who didn't comply or raised concerns it was distressing children trying to sleep or NHS night shifts or whatever - it was so Orwellian in how that one panned out.

They've nicely split society down the middle into the "Covid good" and "Covid bad" and now they're working at removing the "Covid bad" from society bit by bit. We're all so busy pointing fingers and blaming that no one is watching them completely mock the rules themselves, make their buddies fat on dodgy as fuck contracts, the jostling for resources and funding and position in terms of long Covid from various interests wanting to make sure they're front and centre of the rehab cash from that... and how history is re-written time and time again now - tweets are deleted and denied, stories are re-written and statistics misreported or used misleadingly. There's some lunacy on both sides - but there's a hell of a lot of "fact checking" that is much more censorship than facts.

Consent not freely given is not consent. Don't quite know when that made me someone not worthy of being a member of society for holding that thought inside my brain - but it happened some time between Winter 2019 and now.

@Greenplums there is no condoning that kind or behaviour. Would you ‘understand’ if I came and threatened you and picketed outside your house for days because you are an anti-vaxxer. No condoning or understanding, there are other ways to get your point across.

@CoffeeWithCheese I don’t think this plays out in real life though, the media likes to hype everything up so we think it’s like that but in reality I’ve never been berated for not wearing a mask or ever asked about my vaccination status or bullied for not clapping ( which I didn’t). I think these are just extreme cases because well, let’s face it, some people are wankers and MN is not indicator real life.

@trixiefirecracker. Yes, I would understand it, but - to re-iterate - I wouldn't condone it.

*@C*offeeWithCheese couldn't agree more. Dystopian is exactly the word for what has happened to society since March 2020. 😔

It upsets me so much to see how much the last 18 months of restrictions and rules has robbed our elderly population of their precious time left, has taken their voice, their social contacts, their confidence and their joy in life, and left behind in many cases a diminished person with less confidence than before.

This^

Good on your dad @Siriisatwat I’m glad he took matters into his own hands. Sorry to hear that he isn’t doing so well.

Dystopian is exactly the word for what has happened to society since March 2020.

Oh don't be so melodramatic, honestly it's a public health crisis not a Margaret Atwood novel

@Mythroatisstillsore

Dystopian is exactly the word for what has happened to society since March 2020.

Oh don't be so melodramatic, honestly it's a public health crisis not a Margaret Atwood novel

You would have thought you were in a dystopian novel reading some of the threads on here last year. Some of them were bonkers.

I really worried for some of the posters.

Then there were the ones who just loved it, all the rules, telling people off, practically salivating over reporting people for breaking the rules. Now the ones who are the self appointed vaccine police.

The link doesn't work.

@Trixiefirecracker

Because anti-vaxxers are nuts?

This

@Greenplums

I have declined the covid jabs. I made an informed decision not to have them, after weighing up the pros and cons based on my personal perceived risk, the infection fatality rate, the fact that there was no long-term data and (as we now know) the fact that having the jabs don't prevent you from getting or passing on covid.

Alarm bells started ringing for me when I realised how they were counting and classifying covid deaths.

I remain very 'under the radar' about not having the jabs. The reason why some unvaccinated people are getting so passionate about things is that they can see that there is literally no counter view being presented in mainstream media and want to make people aware.

There are no special reports on the 6pm news showing people who are vaccine damaged. There are no journalists on the news questioning the method in which covid deaths are reported and the definition of "unvaccinated" people in hospital (you are not considered vaccinated until 15 days after the 2nd dose is administered). There is no mention on the mainstream media about the covid IFR.

I don't condone people intimidating other people in the slightest, but can understand why some extreme people/groups are doing it.

Well put.

@UsedUpUsername

Grandma in a care home probably does not have 15 years left, so I’m not sure what your point here is.

Care homes necessarily have stricter COVID protocol but Granny living independently on her own should decide whether she wants to be isolated from her family (elderly isolated and alone are at higher risk from depression and other maladies) or take unknown risks to see her loved ones.

Why shouldn’t it be a choice left to individuals?

I don't recall saying it shouldn't? I did say only that if some people couldn't make the right choices, perhaps then it should be up to Public Health. I also did not specifically talk about taking out Grandmas from a care home, either. I was talking about the elderly in a care home. Very diffferent.

If it helps @Greenplums and @HitchhikersGuide here’s a link to an article about covid deaths…. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/analysis-why-englands-covid-19-death-toll-is-wrong-but-not-by-much
I believe the Guardian is considered ‘mainstream’ and here’s one about vaccine ‘damage’/death. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796.amp Both took me 2 seconds to google and both in the news. I didn’t find it difficult to find news on any of the above topics you mentioned.

tv2021 I've seen some collated lists of young sports people who have died or suffered heart damage recently and its a large and worrying amount.
While I'm aware that such deaths are not unprecedented the numbers in such a short space of time are alarming.

There's a weird silence around it in most of the news media.

It's also a difficult topic to raise without being shouted down as a full on anti vaxxer. Like any sort of criticism of these vaccines is seen as heresy. But Pandemrix wasn't that long ago.

I also hope I'm wrong. But I feel there does need to be a honest acknowledgement that the risk benefit ratios probably do differ wildly depending on age. The JCVI did try to get the balance of that right but they've been pilloried, often in quite harsh, unprofessional terms

Overall talking about these issues can occasion a lot of ad hominim attacks.

Tv2021 and max normal, these are the issues that are concerning me.
The censorship (and that is what it is) policed in relation to SM by tech companies and in relation to MSM by the Ofcom rules seems to me to be unprecedented in modern times.
The risk to benefit ratio of the vaccines does, as a fact accepted by the pharma companies themselves and by governments worldwide, depend vastly on age (primarily - secondarily on other health factors).
The ad hominem attacks are part of this twatterverse where intelligent and measured debate isn't possible.
I am not an 'anti vaxxer'. I care not a jot whether people want the Covid vaccine for themselves. They're welcome. However, as the premiss of the vaccines, as stated by both govts and pharma companies, was that they didn't stop infection or transmission but protected the vaccinated, to a degree, from serious illness, it is illogical in the extreme to think that mandates have any genuine public health basis.

I like Dan Astin-Gregory Pandemic podcast.

He is logical, fair and inspiring. I recommend it to open-minded people.

@tv2021 I can answer some of those for you. Don’t think natural immunity has been ignored but it’s not a given so it’s unreliable. It is sometimes linked with severity of disease so if you are not very unwell with Covid-19 you may not develop sufficient immunity. Here’s a link that might help…
www.immunology.org/coronavirus/connect-coronavirus-public-engagement-resources/covid-immunity-natural-infection-vaccine
There have been many articles about vit D and it’s benefits but research is ongoing but as you can see the NHS were actually onboard with this and handing out free prescriptions for Vit D so don’t think it’s being ‘ignored’. Vaccination can help reduce transmission in some cases, this is not a given but stands to reason you are shedding less viral load if you are less ill with covid. Here’s a link to an article which might help, 63%less likely to pass Covid on if vaccinated. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/amp/ Of course it doesn’t prevent everyone getting it but certainly can help. Hope that helps you with your questions. I have provided links, which are important as lots of people in this thread don’t seem to be doing. @MaxNormal and tv2020 I would suggest it might be better to link this list of sports people, what have they died from and where is the article? Then people can verify it.

@Trixiefirecracker I'll post a twitter link that has collated some of the deaths.
Please note I do not follow this person, have no idea of their general views and do not necessarily endorse them. The news stories themselves however are all perfectly real and verifiable.

twitter.com/TheNo1Waffler/status/1455676108477800461?t=xIfh_hYDUy4-8mKe_WKOsw&s=19

" However, as the premiss of the vaccines, as stated by both govts and pharma companies, was that they didn't stop infection or transmission but protected the vaccinated, to a degree, from serious illness, it is illogical in the extreme to think that mandates have any genuine public health basis

This sums it up perfectly ⬆️
And 💯on the censorship issue too - scientific and medical debate has been censored, doctors and scientists who have spoken out have lost their jobs for gods sake, top medics and scientists from Harvard, Stanford and Oxford have been ignored but they're still out there voicing their concerns if anyone cares enough to listen or inform themselves check out Dr Jay Bhattacharya for a start.

I don’t get my Information from Twitter, it’s a social media site and full of crap, it’s a bit worrying you do. I suggest if you are getting your information from there it’s no wonder you have fallen down a hole of anti-vaccine nonsense. If you post me some proper data, I’ll read it.