What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is...

[CanadianJohn]

What I don't understand about anti-vaxxers is how malevolent some of them are. If I decided I didn't want a covid jab, I certainly wouldn't picket hospitals and health centres. Recently an elected legislator in Manitoba faced a demonstration of about 30 people at her home, and someone left a noose on her lawn. www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/health/alberta-politician-angry-after-covid-19-protesters-leave-gallows-noose-at-her-house-575661242.html

A recent news story on booster jabs provoked dozens of responses poking fun at "sheeple" and referencing Big Phama and similar themes.

Why are so many people so vitriolic about the vaccine?

*you

Testing, track and trace… plenty of money going into people’s pockets rather than into the NHS.

There is evidence to suggest that having Covid gives natural immunity.Therefore, if you’ve had it, what is the benefit in getting the vaccine?
Being double vaxxed doesn’t prevent transmission nor does it stop you getting Covid.
Being double vaccinated does seem to give some people a sense that they can do what they want and not pose a risk to others.
This change in behaviour amongst double vaccinated may be causing spread of the virus.
However, when we point out these concerns we get labelled as “ anti vaxxers”🤣

@squeezyhug Because not all people gain natural immunity after having covid, it seems largely dependent on severity of the illness. There’s plenty of reasons why, if you care to google it.

[quote Trixiefirecracker]@squeezyhug Because not all people gain natural immunity after having covid, it seems largely dependent on severity of the illness. There’s plenty of reasons why, if you care to google it.[/quote]
Actually several studies show majority have immunity for 9+ months and that even a mild infection can confer lasting immunity.

And not all people develop robust immunity after the vaccine either.

@bumbleymummy you put this narrative on almost every thread, please link to your sources. I’ve linked to mine previously.

@bumbleymummy www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-do-vaccines-protect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity#What-the-team-found

www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-06/Duration-of%20protective-immunity-evidence-summary_22-June-2021.pdf

I’ve linked to this loads of times because it’s a good summary of several papers.

And just to be clear - this is an official government document. I am not posting this to in any way mnnimise the usefulness of the vaccine. It is simply a summary document that shows that immunity after infection lasts for over 9 months. It was used to recommend that NPHET extend their definition of presumptive immunity to 9 months from 6.

It's important to note that the standard NHS antibody tests do not test for the presence of T-cells. T-cells are believed to last for longer whereas antibodies may wane over time.

A special test is required to measure T-cells.

I think @bumbleymummy that the research is still ongoing so it’s very difficult to know for sure you have immunity after catching covid. You can’t rely on that as a given, for your one source there’s a hundred more saying otherwise. I myself know of three people who have had covid twice, in a short turnaround. Where is their natural immunity? The second time was much worse that the first, so to rely on only that as a given is not reliable. Vaccines are more reliable way of receiving immunity. And yes, maybe you will get a great immunity from covid but equally maybe you will end up getting sicker, as my friend did.

@Trixiefirecracker

I think *@bumbleymummy* that the research is still ongoing so it’s very difficult to know for sure you have immunity after catching covid. You can’t rely on that as a given, for your one source there’s a hundred more saying otherwise. I myself know of three people who have had covid twice, in a short turnaround. Where is their natural immunity? The second time was much worse that the first, so to rely on only that as a given is not reliable. Vaccines are more reliable way of receiving immunity. And yes, maybe you will get a great immunity from covid but equally maybe you will end up getting sicker, as my friend did.

Well, yes, the research is continuing but some countries do consider people to have presumptive immunity for 6 months after infection (they can get a ‘vaccine’ passport too)

It’s unusual that you know so many genuinely reinfected people and that they found it worse. The data from the ons showed that reinfection is rare and more serious second infection is even rarer.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticleanalysisofreinfectionsofcovid19/june2021

The data you have linked is not for the new variant though. That is a whole different ball game, plus it’s only linking limited studies and only only says ‘possible immunity for UP to 9 months’ so it’s not a given, which was entirely my point,

If you are happy to rely on your natural immunity @bumbleymummy then go for it. I personally do t think you should be advocating this for all, which seems to be your main narrative on all the threads you have posted on. Even the first link you gave me stared on their study that the vaccines plus natural immunity gave much better results. I don’t have a problem, as I have said, a million times that folk don’t get the vaccine but I think it’s disingenuous to roll out a blanket, ‘well we’ve all got natural immunity that will last 9 months’ because it’s not factual. Anyway massive derailing of thread, as always in these cases, so will give it a chance to get back on track.

*stated

We don’t have 9 months worth of data on delta yet. So I’m sure those studies will be published in time.

This was the advice from hiqa, based on those studies -

“The updated evidence summary identified 19 large cohort studies involving over 640,000 previously infected individuals, including six studies with over ten months’ follow-up. Across studies, the risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection was consistently found to be low. No study reported an increase in reinfection risk over time. More limited data were identified in relation to the immune response to SARS-CoV-2 infection. The identified studies suggest that immune memory develops in most or all people that have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and lasts for at least nine months”

www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-06/Duration-of-protective-immunity_Advice-to-NPHET_25-May-2021_0.pdf

@Trixiefirecracker

If you are happy to rely on your natural immunity *@bumbleymummy* then go for it. I personally do t think you should be advocating this for all, which seems to be your main narrative on all the threads you have posted on. Even the first link you gave me stared on their study that the vaccines plus natural immunity gave much better results. I don’t have a problem, as I have said, a million times that folk don’t get the vaccine but I think it’s disingenuous to roll out a blanket, ‘well we’ve all got natural immunity that will last 9 months’ because it’s not factual. Anyway massive derailing of thread, as always in these cases, so will give it a chance to get back on track.

Not at all. I think people should be vaccinated if they want to be. For those that don’t want to be, and have been infected, I think their immunity after infection should be recognised and they shouldn’t have to lose their jobs over it as many are currently doing.

@bumbleymummy

I get what you're saying but if natural immunity post infection were to be "recognised" at this stage it risks millions of people going out to get themselves deliberately infected. The virus would spread quickly to vulnerable people landing thousands in hospital at the same time and the health care system would collapse. The whole point of the vaccine is to TRY and stop that from happening. It's not a perfect solution but it's the best we can do, for the greatest number of people, at this stage of the pandemic.

[quote containsnuts]@bumbleymummy

I get what you're saying but if natural immunity post infection were to be "recognised" at this stage it risks millions of people going out to get themselves deliberately infected. The virus would spread quickly to vulnerable people landing thousands in hospital at the same time and the health care system would collapse. The whole point of the vaccine is to TRY and stop that from happening. It's not a perfect solution but it's the best we can do, for the greatest number of people, at this stage of the pandemic.[/quote]
Well, yes, we have a vaccine to stop that happening by protecting the elderly people and preventing them from becoming seriously ill. Look at how the hospital admissions figures for the older population have started dropping now that the booster is available. The vaccine has stood up very well in terms of protection for the individual, just not so much irt transmission.

I think it’s pretty much accepted as inevitable at this point that everyone is going to get infected. I think it should be personal choice as to whether someone wants to reduce their own personal risk with the vaccine or not and they certainly shouldn’t be fired for that.

One question that I always want to ask on threads like these…

Why is natural infection created immunity any different to vaccine created immunity when it comes to working in a care home or hospital, or in any setting for that matter?

If you’ve had a symptomatic covid infection, before or after vaccination, then surely the antibodies have been created the same. Some papers argue that natural infection creates a more robust immunity due to the multi armed approach of the natural immune system vs the antibody dependent version used by the vaccines. However, that is almost irrelevant. In both cases, natural immunity in whatever form has been stimulated and so why would you need to be vaccinated to go to work? If you’ve only had natural exposure to covid then surely you could argue that you are essentially vaccinated?

It is this failure to recognise natural immunity that causes many of us to post on threads like these advocating for freedom of choice without punishment for choosing not to be vaccinated.
As @bumbleymummy has said on many threads, nobody wishes to deny anyone the chance to be vaccinated and receive as many boosters as they like for their own protection. But by that same argument, it is time natural immunity was recognised and for these insane vaccine mandates and different treatment of the vaccinated and unvaccinated regarding travel and in some countries, freedom to be part of society, to be cancelled.

If you’ve had a natural covid infection and survived it at home then where’s the threat to hospital capacity on the off chance you caught it again? You know you can tolerate it at home so no issue there. You know also have the same ability to generate antibodies as somebody who is vaccinated so once again, no issue there with regards to you then working in a care home or hospital.

It’s easy to accept all these introductions like vaccine mandates and passports when there’s no discrimination against you personally. I completely understand it - “Well I’m vaccinated and I will still be able to work and travel and go to a cinema” But you all really need to be ahead of the game on this and look further into the future. The uk MUST continue to refute such legislation because the blatant discrimination against those wishing to make a different medical choice will only affect more and more people. Some will decide that they have already had covid and were fine so the unknown risk is over, others will have worked out from nearly 2 years of data that they are probably very unlikely to experience a serious illness and so don’t need boosters or some may have experienced side effects from the first 2 doses and are now wary of a 3rd and a 4th etc. The problem is, by then it may be too late to stop it. Israel, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Australia, Canada and France are examples of what could be to come, just take 5 minutes to have a look and a think.

When I read things like this link, about data integrity issues with one of the Pfizer trials, it emphasises to me that mandating this, including de facto mandates through job loss or vaccine passports, is unconscionable.

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Is there no recognition for recovered people in the UK? I live in Germany and there is here. You can register as being recovered (needs to be documented with a test) and it counts as just the same as a vaccination.

I'm dreading April. I work in the NHS and we have lost half our team, people have left because they don't want to work in a covid heavy environment.
In April we will lose everyone who isn't vaccinated as they are very firm in their beliefs abut it and we'll be in a position where we won't be able to provide any kind of a service to the general public.
We can't recruit either nobody wants to work here.