Are people dying of Covid, or with Covid?

[lightand]

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

That doesn't mean the Liverpool care pathway in itself was horrific ,guidelines that are ignored or abused are a completely different matter

They are not separate things.

Policy’s that can be abused like this are not fit for purpose.

My best friend's mother was ill for years - she had an autoimmune condition and then thyroid cancer. Lockdown was a disaster for her - as it was for many elderly unwell people who were suddenly cut off from support and contact - and much of her care was delayed. She was taken to hospital in November 2020, emaciated and incoherent. Her house was a mess. She hadn't seen her children for months so she could 'stay safe.' They tested her for covid, twice. Both negative. Covid was put down as her cause of death.

Her cause of death was lockdown and neglect by the healthcare system. As her death was unexpected she should have had a post mortem. But they put covid down and that let them avoid investigating. Convenient.

I wonder how many other cases like hers are out there.

@lightand

Peoples' perception of the numbers need to change. And thereby their fear levels.

"Weekly deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate by date registered"
and "Deaths involving covid", are misleading to people.

The figures given out by the government, are, a lot of times, giving the wrong idea that the say 820 a week, are of purely and simply, of covid. They are not.

See previous comments; deaths from covid continue for more than 28 days; the weekly death figures may therefore underestimate the number caused by covid.

It has always been the case that there may be more than 1 cause of death & death certificates allow for that.

A graphic illustration of the ability of vaccine to reduce covid deaths

twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1452463999216459776

@beefmeupscotty

Not trying to he funny, just pointing out the silliness of the post.death isnt black and white.

@thedailycarbunkle

Very sorry to hear this.
The reality is through her covid was an factor in death as if covid hadnt happened her care wouldnt have been delayed, she wouldnt have been cut off from support, or become so ill so quickly.

I think thats what people forget regardless of dying due to covid or because covid has delayed diagnosis, left you waiting for an medical care too long, or what ever reason. Covid has directly or indirectly caused those deaths.

And the struggle the hospitals are under right now dealing with normal winter demands and then covid on top is going to cause more deaths this winter. How many really depends on how high the peak goes.

@lightand

Dying ‘with covid’ obviously means there’s a very good chance that having covid has sped up their death,..

Does it though?

Covid is little more than a cold for some people, and some are asyptomatic.

A family member of ours died last year. Her death certificate states Covid as the cause of death. She was 85 and had terminal lung cancer. She had been told no more than 3 months to live, then she got Covid and died within 3 weeks. So yes the Covid sped up the inevitable, but she was dying regardless. Without the lung cancer, would she have died of Covid? Who knows.

[quote Covidworries]@thedailycarbunkle

Very sorry to hear this.
The reality is through her covid was an factor in death as if covid hadnt happened her care wouldnt have been delayed, she wouldnt have been cut off from support, or become so ill so quickly.

I think thats what people forget regardless of dying due to covid or because covid has delayed diagnosis, left you waiting for an medical care too long, or what ever reason. Covid has directly or indirectly caused those deaths.

And the struggle the hospitals are under right now dealing with normal winter demands and then covid on top is going to cause more deaths this winter. How many really depends on how high the peak goes.[/quote]
The point the pp was making was that her death was caused by the policy choices we made in response to Covid. These were not inevitable despite the popular narrative. Different choices could have been made.

Absolutely there has been loads of poor policy choices. Loads of delay which has sky rocketed cases with nit acting fast enough.
The excess deaths over this period has been so high

@Covidworries

Absolutely there has been loads of poor policy choices. Loads of delay which has sky rocketed cases with nit acting fast enough. The excess deaths over this period has been so high

That’s not what the pp was talking about and you know it.

The point was about the harmful impact of lockdown and other restrictions.

If it’s on the death certificate it has contributed to, or caused, their death.

• A family member of ours died last year. Her death certificate states Covid as the cause of death. She was 85 and had terminal lung cancer. She had been told no more than 3 months to live, then she got Covid and died within 3 weeks. So yes the Covid sped up the inevitable, but she was dying regardless. Without the lung cancer, would she have died of Covid? Who knows.*

That would be correct - first on the list of causes would be COVID as that was the actual thing that caused her death. Contributing/underlying causes were the lung cancer which made her very vulnerable to dying from COVID. It wasn’t actually the lung cancer that ultimately caused her death, COVID did. I would have expected lung cancer to be second on the death certificate.

@bizawit

And without lockdowns and restrictions do you believe hospital care for all medical needs would have be able to continue uneffected by the pandemic? Or would of the shear numbers of people ill with covid also have caused delays in medical care for other illnesses?

@FlorenciaFlora

I truly believe there needs to be an investigation into what happened in care homes. When the biggest risk factor is living in a care home something is very wrong. A virus cannot know where you live.

Why were thousands of elderly people moved into care homes with instructions for them not to be tested for covid prior to admittance?

Why were blanket dnrs put on those people in care homes?

Why was the law changed regarding the use of controlled drugs in those care homes?

Why was the law changed to grant indemnity for staff looking after covid patients in those homes?

Why was the law changed to ban visitors from care homes?

Why was the law changed so that those deaths were not reported to the coroner?

Why was 2 years of sedatives dispensed within just a few months?

The “protective ring” around care homes didn’t happen. It is inconceivable that instructions were given to not test people prior to their admission to a care home.

Well, I would have quoted the response by @herecomesthsun in the interests of fairness, but this does get to the nub of it.

With Covid? Or of Covid?
With dehydration? Or of dehydration?

Those with 'underlying health issues' are in that bracket. Whatever wear and tear they get in the care home, any death will be attributed to that condition and not to any neglect by the care home that would have accelerated their death. It's state protocol, it emerges.
You'd struggle to persuade me that in Surrey they aren't running some variation on the Liverpool Care Pathway, ruthlessly used by some NHS Health Trust to murder the elderly and save money. Not like Gosport, with drugs, but by dehydration. That's after seven Surrey care homes over six years. It got very very sinister and my sister and I had to visit Mum - who had the underlying condition of Parkinson's - daily to give her drink while the care homes refused.
Now - what would her chances have been had she got Covid? Or if we'd been barred from visiting? Zero, she'd have died about three years earlier - no bad thing from the State's perspective as it would have saved money on pensions and prescriptions, even though we were self-funding.

The Covid thing is a massive smokescreen. If they don't die of that, they'll die of dehydration or isolation from loved ones.
The State is working through a backlog.

In any case, it became clear to me that the Liverpool Care Pathway was continuing under another name, or rather no name. They call it 'end of life care' - often 'ending life care' in reality. Now, in some cases one could argue fair enough if one is really at the end of life and with no prospect of recovery and in pain, etc. Thing is, you the family don't get to decide. The State does. In fact, if you didn't get LPA in Health and Welfare for your parent when you could, you're not the decision maker for their care anyway. The State is. You can't even read their medical notes, you're not allowed to. Nice!

In any case, it became clear to me that the Liverpool Care Pathway was continuing under another name, or rather no name

I totally agree.

www.hartgroup.org/midazolam-prescriptions/

O great another thread like this.
Cause of death is very complicated as various factors are involved. Yet the 28 day death figure is generally lower than the death certificate figure so one can assume COVID has contributed to even more deaths than stated in the 28 day figure.
Plus there have been reports of people discharged from hospital after a stay with COVID being readmitted later with heart issues etc which are known to be a COVID complication. Yet there deaths would not be counted either.
Remember the vast number of Dementia deaths at the start too. It was believed many of these deaths were COVID but testing wasn't available
Surely it is better to error the side of caution and continue to take the Viruses seriously whilst living your life as no one really knows how ill they will become as there are outliers.
Plus the thread in unsavoury anyway due to the implication that if someone happens go be old or with pre existing conditions than it is almost acceptable that their deaths have been brought forward.
I have a parent who probably had 6 months to live. This in itself devastated her but her death was brought forward by another issue. This was devastating for all concerned.
Both issues appeared in the death certificate but she would definitely have lived for several months had the other issue not been there.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

My best friend's mother was ill for years - she had an autoimmune condition and then thyroid cancer. Lockdown was a disaster for her - as it was for many elderly unwell people who were suddenly cut off from support and contact - and much of her care was delayed. She was taken to hospital in November 2020, emaciated and incoherent. Her house was a mess. She hadn't seen her children for months so she could 'stay safe.' They tested her for covid, twice. Both negative. Covid was put down as her cause of death.

Her cause of death was lockdown and neglect by the healthcare system. As her death was unexpected she should have had a post mortem. But they put covid down and that let them avoid investigating. Convenient.

I wonder how many other cases like hers are out there.

There will be many. Also, while a death certificate may allow for more than one cause of death, there will be one overriding that will be seen as the main cause. It might be Covid or that 'underlying health problem'. That is their get out of jail card.

We asked for a post mortem for Mum back in Oct 2017, all pre-Covid. But we got messed about - it took six months to get a verdict and someone in the know anticipated an inquest, but no dice. I don't have time to go into how sinister the whole thing was, but frankly it had been so for the last few years, you come to realise the State - the collusion of police, local authorities, regulators, NHS Trusts - is mad and wholly corrupt, they do tip each other off you're coming. Much of this was confirmed along the way by Subject Access Requests to Surrey County Council, it revealed a secret army of people involved behind the scenes in Mum's 'care' - none of it to her advantage. Deeply weird stuff though I concede it makes me sound weird reporting it. You do being to see how it's taken so long for the Gosport families or Contaminated Blood relatives to get justice - and of course, they still haven't.

That said, we did alright by Mum, we were saving her life every day for years.

This thread is just a whole load of ignorance.

If you can’t be bothered to actually look at the data then don’t go around making shit up. Which is what the OP is doing. Making it up. Are you a medical professional? Epidemiologist? Data scientist? Anything? No of course not, then why don’t you actually read a bit from people who are before thinking you actually know more than anyone else. It’s so arrogant.

Of course people are dying of Covid, it’s a pandemic! They don’t call something a pandemic because it gives you a mild cold and hey, you were going to die anyway.

Just look at a graph of the excess deaths from last year. Excess means, you know, more deaths than we usually have, because, you know, pan bloody Demic…

Honestly I can’t believe we are 2 years into this and people are still as ignorant.

If you think the cause of death is wrong on the certificate, you tell them when you go to register the death. They can then order an inquest. Inquests are particularly important for avoidable causes of death.

[quote FlorenciaFlora]www.hartgroup.org/midazolam-prescriptions/[/quote]
Oooh Hart group. That well known bastion of truth🤣

@NCBlossom

This thread is just a whole load of ignorance.

If you can’t be bothered to actually look at the data then don’t go around making shit up. Which is what the OP is doing. Making it up. Are you a medical professional? Epidemiologist? Data scientist? Anything? No of course not, then why don’t you actually read a bit from people who are before thinking you actually know more than anyone else. It’s so arrogant.

Of course people are dying of Covid, it’s a pandemic! They don’t call something a pandemic because it gives you a mild cold and hey, you were going to die anyway.

Just look at a graph of the excess deaths from last year. Excess means, you know, more deaths than we usually have, because, you know, pan bloody Demic…

Honestly I can’t believe we are 2 years into this and people are still as ignorant.

Exactly I don't claim to be any of those things, but excess deaths is a good indicator

And the simple fact that the covid deaths figures don't include those over 28 days. When it's pretty obvious some poor people take over that time before they pass

It's so easy to see that there are many ways to argue it, many views, etc. But the pressure on hospitals, morgues, funerals really isn't that hard to see

[quote Covidworries]@bizawit

And without lockdowns and restrictions do you believe hospital care for all medical needs would have be able to continue uneffected by the pandemic? Or would of the shear numbers of people ill with covid also have caused delays in medical care for other illnesses?[/quote]
We don’t have all the counterfactuals of course. But in my view - I think medical care was much more adversely affected than it needed to be, because of the panic caused by erroneous modelling.

Also in the example pp gave, it wasn’t just the absence of medical care that caused her death, it was also the impact of isolation/ lockdown.,

Oooh Hart group. That well known bastion of truth🤣

Yes they’re clearly lying. Along with amnesty international and the CQC. I wonder what causes these agency’s to tell these lies? Why don’t you contact them and tell them they are wrong?

The idiots at the CQC obviously don’t know what they’re talking about. I mean, what qualifications do they have anyway? They’ve probably got their info of YouTube. If only people like this would do some real research.

www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/20201204%20DNACPR%20Interim%20Report%20-%20FINAL.pdf