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Are people dying of Covid, or with Covid?

373 replies

lightand · 24/10/2021 09:25

As they are different things.

Does anyone actually know?

There will always be people dying with Covid, as the elderly, especially, die, and some of them, like the rest of us, will always die whilst having Covid.

So could 180 per day per winter be an average number going forward, forever now? [and the NHS should well be into the process of gearing up for that?]

OP posts:
FlorenciaFlora · 25/10/2021 10:36

I truly believe there needs to be an investigation into what happened in care homes. When the biggest risk factor is living in a care home something is very wrong. A virus cannot know where you live.

Why were thousands of elderly people moved into care homes with instructions for them not to be tested for covid prior to admittance?

Why were blanket dnrs put on those people in care homes?

Why was the law changed regarding the use of controlled drugs in those care homes?

Why was the law changed to grant indemnity for staff looking after covid patients in those homes?

Why was the law changed to ban visitors from care homes?

Why was the law changed so that those deaths were not reported to the coroner?

Why was 2 years of sedatives dispensed within just a few months?

The “protective ring” around care homes didn’t happen. It is inconceivable that instructions were given to not test people prior to their admission to a care home.

Cornettoninja · 25/10/2021 10:58

@Faultymain5 but why would a government essentially fabricate numbers and leave themselves open to accusations of obvious manipulation that is easily disproved?

I don’t deny that governments and corporations will take advantage of a situation any time the opportunity crops up but I don’t think, in this case covid fatalities, isn’t reliable. This isn’t the Iraq Dossier that led to war based on false reports and intelligence about WMD. Far too many layers are involved in collating the data for deviation from the truth to occur on a mass scale.

Beefmeupscotty · 25/10/2021 10:58

@Covidworries

Do people die with cancer or of cancer?

Do people die with RTC injuiries ot of RTC injuries?

🙄

Ffs. You're trying to be funny but it's really not. And the 'of' and 'with' distinction is nothing new. AIDS is a classic example. Freddie Mercury died 'of' broncal pneumonia, although we all know it was because of AIDS.

herecomesthsun · 25/10/2021 11:06

In the case of Freddie Mercury, he died of both, and both should have been mentioned on the death certificate. No conspiracies and no dishonesty in any of this.

Walkaround · 25/10/2021 11:11

The “of” and “with” question is nothing knew. Mass questioning of what is put on people’s death certificates by people with bugger all knowledge or understanding of the individuals’ lives or deaths is new, though.

herecomesthsun · 25/10/2021 11:40

@FlorenciaFlora

I truly believe there needs to be an investigation into what happened in care homes. When the biggest risk factor is living in a care home something is very wrong. A virus cannot know where you live.

Why were thousands of elderly people moved into care homes with instructions for them not to be tested for covid prior to admittance?

Why were blanket dnrs put on those people in care homes?

Why was the law changed regarding the use of controlled drugs in those care homes?

Why was the law changed to grant indemnity for staff looking after covid patients in those homes?

Why was the law changed to ban visitors from care homes?

Why was the law changed so that those deaths were not reported to the coroner?

Why was 2 years of sedatives dispensed within just a few months?

The “protective ring” around care homes didn’t happen. It is inconceivable that instructions were given to not test people prior to their admission to a care home.

Well, at grass roots level, hospitals were faced with a pandemic and were expecting 1000s of additional very ill people and 1000s of deaths, which is what actually happened.

We weren't staffed for a pandemic - staffing is stretched anyway - and a lot of medical & nursing staff were off ill themselves -so plans were made to keep hospitals running in the very worst of circumstances. The medical teams involved agonized over the best way to manage this.

The emphasis was on delivering the best care to the ill patients so emergency measures were put in place, to reduce administration and focus medical time on looking after the very ill. I agree though that when not in an emergency situation the normal processes would resume.

Initially there weren't tests for covid, then when tests became available, we knew they weren't 100% reliable, but we had to go with what we had, as we had nothing better to use. In my experience, we were testing patients before discharge from hospital to care homes; if they tested positive for covid they stayed in hospital till they had recovered from it.

Coroners do not have capacity to do 130k + post mortems in 18 months, there's no way they could have done post mortems on all covid deaths.

Visiting hospital wards for the elderly was a problem as efforts were being made to stop possible entry of infection from outside . (Normally visiting would be strongly encouraged). Of course, it was very difficult to prevent the staff themselves from getting infected (not uncommonly from patients) and some patients would have been admitted who then turned out positive for covid. Again, there was some agonising about allowing visitors for the very illest patients (which was very carefully allowed on a case by case basis, again in my own experience)

Re sedatives and controlled drugs, there was a need for palliative care protocols on some wards for elderly people, for example, where people couldn't be moved to ICU and needed to be made as comfortable as possible. The majority of elderly patients in hospital in these circumstances (in my experience) did in fact recover from covid, the aim was to ease symptoms when they were very ill. Controlled drugs include painkillers, for example.

I think on the level of the local hospital, the doctors and nurses may have done what they could in very difficult circumstances; nationally there are questions to ask, though I'd ask slightly different ones, such as why wasn't the pandemic planning better? Why were the supplies of PPE allowed to be run down? Why was the idea of herd immunity pursued as an option for so long?

And I would agree that there wasn't much evidence of a protective ring around care homes being thought through and made possible by the political bosses with the funding etc at the time.

Faultymain5 · 25/10/2021 11:42

[quote Cornettoninja]@Faultymain5 but why would a government essentially fabricate numbers and leave themselves open to accusations of obvious manipulation that is easily disproved?

I don’t deny that governments and corporations will take advantage of a situation any time the opportunity crops up but I don’t think, in this case covid fatalities, isn’t reliable. This isn’t the Iraq Dossier that led to war based on false reports and intelligence about WMD. Far too many layers are involved in collating the data for deviation from the truth to occur on a mass scale.[/quote]
But I never said they were fabricating numbers.

Manipulation of data and fabrication of data are two different things. How the data has been presentEd and continues to be presented is intended to have a specific outcome. I’d say that outcome was to create fear and division. Is the country living in fear (I’d say yes), is the country divided (I’d say yes) - qudos to them it worked.

herecomesthsun · 25/10/2021 11:51

The other thing is that a very large number of doctors and nurses, even senior ones, really don't like the Conservative party much, especially this very right wing lot we have in now, who seem to want to privatise the NHS.

I don't think that NHS staff would want to help the Conservatives use health issues to control the country. I don't see how that would work, at all.

herecomesthsun · 25/10/2021 11:55

Oh and one issue re the large numbers of deaths being in care homes, is that the virus does affect very elderly people more severely, especially those with underlying medical issues/ dementia, and this is exactly the population of most care homes.

It is very contagious, so likely to pass from one resident to another (especially if the residents have dementia and can't be told not to wander about or go up to other people, very difficult to manage isolation for these people who have no idea what is going on).

I agree, though, it is right to ask questions about the level of deaths nonetheless.

Upsky · 25/10/2021 12:02

@LastTrainEast

Isn't there a special section for people who really don't want covid to be real? ADs or something? OP could go there and people would say YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!! and so on. I'm sure that would be very gratifying.

The "but it won't kill me so I don't care" crowd are not quite the same, but the overlap is nearly total I think so they may as well band together.

If only.

One day, all these people who dismiss the early death of people who are old or have, to quote that horrendous phrase, underlying conditions will also be old or sick.
You can be old and full of life and vigour. You can be middle aged with a serious disease that is not life threatening and is completely controlled by drugs but covid more likely to kill you.

julieca · 25/10/2021 12:16

Coroners never do post mortems on all people who die. Post mortems are where the cause of death is unknown or there are doubts raised.

FlorenciaFlora · 25/10/2021 12:36

Coroners do not have capacity to do 130k + post mortems in 18 months, there's no way they could have done post mortems on all covid deaths

Maths is not my strong point but it seems on average there are around 85,500 post-mortems performed every year. They do around 170,000 every 2 years. So 130,000 in a year and a half seems a standard amount to do.

I cannot understand why mortuary staff were paid to sit in empty nightingale hospitals.

DeclineandFall · 25/10/2021 12:43

Every time we see or hear such mistruths we need to combat them and call them out. They are used to play down the seriousness and consequences of covid-19 and undermine health protection efforts.

This.

FlorenciaFlora · 25/10/2021 12:47

Re sedatives and controlled drugs, there was a need for palliative care protocols on some wards for elderly people, for example, where people couldn't be moved to ICU and needed to be made as comfortable as possible

It is the word comfortable that makes people uneasy. What does comfortable actually mean? Is a person made comfortable with their consent, or their families consent? Who decides who’s going to be made comfortable? Do people have a choice? Who decides in a care home? GPS stopped doing visits to care homes.

We have heard Hancock openly talking about ensuring people have a “good death” and telling us he’s ordered 2 years worth of powerful sedatives. Those sedatives suppress your breathing and two years worth was dispensed in just a few months. And we have families reporting that their elderly relatives who only went into care for rehab were promptly sedated and died.

I hate to say it but some of this feels suspiciously similar to the horrific Liverpool pathway.

DumplingsAndStew · 25/10/2021 12:50

@FlorenciaFlora

Maths is not my strong point but it seems on average there are around 85,500 post-mortems performed every year. They do around 170,000 every 2 years. So 130,000 in a year and a half seems a standard amount to do.

130k extra post-mortems 🙄

x2boys · 25/10/2021 12:57

@FlorenciaFlora

Re sedatives and controlled drugs, there was a need for palliative care protocols on some wards for elderly people, for example, where people couldn't be moved to ICU and needed to be made as comfortable as possible

It is the word comfortable that makes people uneasy. What does comfortable actually mean? Is a person made comfortable with their consent, or their families consent? Who decides who’s going to be made comfortable? Do people have a choice? Who decides in a care home? GPS stopped doing visits to care homes.

We have heard Hancock openly talking about ensuring people have a “good death” and telling us he’s ordered 2 years worth of powerful sedatives. Those sedatives suppress your breathing and two years worth was dispensed in just a few months. And we have families reporting that their elderly relatives who only went into care for rehab were promptly sedated and died.

I hate to say it but some of this feels suspiciously similar to the horrific Liverpool pathway.

The liver pool care path way wasn't horrific ,there were clear guidelines ,and the patient was assessed several times a day ,if there were improvement,s they were taken off the pathway ,and ime it was only implemented when it was clear the patient was dying
x2boys · 25/10/2021 13:02

Patients are sedated when they are dying and also given strong painkillers and yes it can suppress their breathing ,but IME many patients are mainly sleeping most of the time by then anyway what would you prefer @FlorenciaFlora ,would you prefer a patient to be frightened and in pain but have a couple more hours of life ,or sedated and out of pain?
I know what I would choose for my loved ones

herecomesthsun · 25/10/2021 13:19

@FlorenciaFlora

Re sedatives and controlled drugs, there was a need for palliative care protocols on some wards for elderly people, for example, where people couldn't be moved to ICU and needed to be made as comfortable as possible

It is the word comfortable that makes people uneasy. What does comfortable actually mean? Is a person made comfortable with their consent, or their families consent? Who decides who’s going to be made comfortable? Do people have a choice? Who decides in a care home? GPS stopped doing visits to care homes.

We have heard Hancock openly talking about ensuring people have a “good death” and telling us he’s ordered 2 years worth of powerful sedatives. Those sedatives suppress your breathing and two years worth was dispensed in just a few months. And we have families reporting that their elderly relatives who only went into care for rehab were promptly sedated and died.

I hate to say it but some of this feels suspiciously similar to the horrific Liverpool pathway.

Most people (in my experience) who were allowed, for example, lorazepam when unwell with covid recovered just fine. This was however on a hospital ward.

Comfortable in this case means not in pain or acute distress, - you wouldn't want that if someone was near to death. My own mum died in a hospice (not during covid) and would have been on similar meds (not with the intention of hastening death)

herecomesthsun · 25/10/2021 13:21

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@FlorenciaFlora

Maths is not my strong point but it seems on average there are around 85,500 post-mortems performed every year. They do around 170,000 every 2 years. So 130,000 in a year and a half seems a standard amount to do.

130k extra post-mortems 🙄[/quote]
and about 79k were performed in 2020(about the usual amount)

Walkaround · 25/10/2021 14:06

Deaths within 28 days of a positive test and covid mentioned on a death certificate are two different things - as you can clearly see here: coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths. I do feel some people (naming no NotterOtters) deliberately conflate the two in an attempt to discredit the statistics, despite the fact that using the data from deaths within 28 days of a positive test under-represents the number of people thought to have died of covid according to their death certificate. The idea that someone would be reporting death as a result of covid on the death certificate of someone killed in a road traffic accident is just ludicrous and pretty offensive. The fact that deaths within 28 days of a positive test if anything under represents reality indicates that people who have died from unrelated causes but are being recorded in the covid statisitcs as dying within 28 days of a positive test is not the actual problem, just a trope of people who are very relaxed about excess mortality and want to distract attention away from it.
This link is quite interesting on when and why covid would be recorded on a death certificate: www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathssolelyfromcovid19ratherthandeathswithin28daysofapositivetest

lightand · 25/10/2021 14:08

How the data has been presentEd and continues to be presented is intended to have a specific outcome. I’d say that outcome was to create fear and division. Is the country living in fear (I’d say yes), is the country divided (I’d say yes) - qudos to them it worked.

Yes, this. The 820 figure is not presented as dying with covid[i would need to check that for sure]. The common consensus seems to be that is how many have died of covid, but that is far from correct.

OP posts:
lightand · 25/10/2021 14:20

Peoples' perception of the numbers need to change. And thereby their fear levels.

"Weekly deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate by date registered"
and "Deaths involving covid", are misleading to people.

The figures given out by the government, are, a lot of times, giving the wrong idea that the say 820 a week, are of purely and simply, of covid. They are not.

OP posts:
FlorenciaFlora · 25/10/2021 14:23

The liver pool care path way wasn't horrific ,there were clear guidelines ,and the patient was assessed several times a day

Guidelines are frequently abused or ignored.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/gosport-war-memorial-hospital-police-21861443

x2boys · 25/10/2021 14:25

[quote FlorenciaFlora]The liver pool care path way wasn't horrific ,there were clear guidelines ,and the patient was assessed several times a day

Guidelines are frequently abused or ignored.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/gosport-war-memorial-hospital-police-21861443[/quote]
That doesn't mean the Liverpool care pathway in itself was horrific ,guidelines that are ignored or abused are a completely different matter

FlorenciaFlora · 25/10/2021 14:29

The liver pool care path way wasn't horrific ,there were clear guidelines ,and the patient was assessed several times a day ,if there were improvement,s they were taken off the pathway ,and ime it was only implemented when it was clear the patient was dying

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jul/15/liverpool-care-pathway-independent-review

Pretty harrowing report I’d say. And it seems there are similar concerns again.

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2020/10/uk-older-people-in-care-homes-abandoned-to-die-amid-government-failures-during-covid-19-pandemic/